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What do you all make of the New Testament passages that seem to severely limit the number of the saved? Such as "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt 7:14)

I know there have been entire 'remnant theologies' postulated around this type of text. But these have never set well with me. So i'm wondering if our Eastern bretheren (I am latin) can shed some light here.

THanks

Jason a sinner

PS My latin friends, feel free to comment as well!!!

I speak very little Latin but I will try.

Qua vatum nova fourum ....

er...

The spiritual concept of the remnant develops within the Old Testament.

It begins with the Exodus - where those who would return to Egypt (or whatever) fall in the desert. Finally - Moses leads the people in circles until that entire generation passes (everyone who could remember living in Egypt).

It probably reaches its fullest development with the messianic prophecies - where Israel (or Judah - I forget which - there were enemies you know) is imaged as this great forest which is leveled to the ground by a huge fire. One should see - burned out tree stumps every where. But from these stumps - buds begin to grow. And from the burned stump of the tree of Jesse (king David�s father) a bud begins to grow a fresh branch from the root of the tree - this signifies the coming messiah (root of Jesse or branch of Jesse) who will govern from the throne of David (and the house of David - Jesse).

And so - while it began as a literal �remainer� in a head-count� its spiritual meaning (always go for the spiritual meaning) is that God will trial each of us and through difficulties and trails - rip away from us our sinful nature - while our God given nature will re-root and grow.

In Johns visions (144,000 saved) John is referring to the rounded number of those who supposedly came out of the desert (Exodus) and into the promised land. So if one was a Jew (and John wrote his visions for Jews to read) one would be reminded that one does not �get into heaven� except by way of many trials and tribulations (as one of Paul�s letters puts it).

Virtues can only be developed under - stress.

Cheers.
-ray

(I have got to make a resolution to also give the practical explanations - this will help people more).

In the visions of John � the angel is �sent forth to harm� the wheat (which equals - bread) and the grapes (which equals wine). Bread and wine - symbols of the Eucharist and by that symbolic of all Christians. The angel �sent forth� to do this harm is Christ himself (as Providence). And so the troubles and trials that come to every Christian in his life - are designed and arranged and sent by Providence (Jesus - God himself) in order to shape the personality (person) of the Christian.

This (of course) happens to every human who has ever lived (God arranging daily events)� Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists etc� (after all reality comes to every man) but the Christian is supposed to KNOW that the person of the Resurrected Jesus IS what we call Providence - and it is He himself who is sending these troubles and discomforts in order to engender virtues in the person. Of course - if a person does not know this about Providence (using daily events to shape us) then there is no voluntary cooperation on his part. Because cooperation explicitly means - a knowing cooperation.

And so Jesus makes the difference between �servants� (those who do not cooperate) and �friends� (those who knowingly and voluntarily cooperate).

In the end - we all - physically die. To say it in a pious way ... would be to say that God rips from us our fallen and sinful nature so that we enter heaven (paridice, all-Providence) naked (refer back to the garden in Genesis).

But let us say it in a different way because the development of Christian theology understands this more fully now. And that would be to say that (with physical death) God removes from us our pre-occupation (and obsessions) with the things and concerns of our animal nature (Paul�s Law of the members). So it is not that our lower animal nature is sinful - but simply that it - can not know or understand - God - it is not capable of grasping or upstanding what can only be known and experience by our spiritual nature (our mind).

And so while death (physical death) seems like such a bad thing to us - it is really a grace - when Providence does it. And that is key - Providence must do it for it to be beneficial to us. This makes suicide an act which circumvents what God is trying to accomplish when he sends us our death. Our self-provided death is just another instance of self-Providence by which we have refused His own Providence.

So we must understand that when we say that God takes from us our �sinful nature� or fallen nature - it does not mean that any part of our nature is sinful or fallen. It rather signifies two things 1) that animal nature has not the capability to know God in any way 2) that our adoption of the mind of the animal nature into the place of our spiritual nature (mind) is not the way we were designed to operate.

And so God will �level it� with �fire� (meaning what we have supplanted into our spiritual nature). Hammer and anvil. Crushing the clay vessel to remold it again. Harvesting (cutting down) the wheat and grapes. Etc.. etc�

This is what the scripture passages in the prophets are all about when God gets anry with false prophets (the prophets who were schooled and appointed to advise the king) when they kept saying "All is well.. all is well" and God retorts "All is NOT well!". These prophets are like a certain type of Christianity today which claims that God wants to cure all our illnesses and being a Christian is a triumphant thing and we should all be cheered and happy because God wants to make everything hunky-dory for us. This type of Christianity would want to skip over the (some times harsh) forming process that Providence wants to do on us. Again - virtues (Uncreated Energies) are infused into us under stress - pressure - hardships - etc� And so �why do bad things happen to good people� � because we don�t give Providence any credit for running his world properly.

The church investigates a would-be saint (someone propoosed for beatification) and what they look at is - did this person should outstanding virtue - under great stress? Now that is a simply way of putting it. But the point is - our animal natures is 'burned' from our spiritual nature untill only a 'remnant' is left. That 'remnant' (when we talk about the spiritual marriage hhere while yet still alive) is actually (under all this symbolism) our animal human nature put back into its place (doing what it was designed to do again).

You get the picture?

Peace to you and all churches.
-ray

Coming as I am from a Protestant background, this type of "spiritual" exegesis sounds strange to my ears. Yet it makes more sense to me than the a literal application.

After all, if "literal unless absurd" then it would stand to reason that the 144,000 denotes the total number of the saved, literally.

Ok, Ray, I've read Cassaude and Fromm. Both of them twice. But I am having trouble getting away from the notion that i must 'do something about it.' If I'm understanding you correctly, the old protestant hymn had got it right when it proclaims "Trust and Obey for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey." After all, if it is God who works in me (us) then I can either cooperate with him by submitting to his Providence or I can frustrate his plans by trying to do it myself. Am I understanding you correctly?

Jason

Jason...and here I was cutting down on posting on this forum during Lent..but when I saw this stimulating question...well...here goes especially in lieu of your encouraging P.S. above.

Remnant theologies or biblical hermeunetics based entirely on numerology have never set well with me either.

The bible does use numerical expressions sometimes to denote a general meaning. So "forty days and forty nights" would refer to an extended period of time...but not necessarily literally "forty days and forty" nights exactly. This is one among many examples.

Only God knows the exact number who will be saved. So, I wouldn't put much merit on the idea that only the 144,000 will be included, etc. even though we see that number in The Book of Revelation

As for the narrow gate...usually this image referred to the sheepgate. Sheep do get through the gate if they are following the shepherd. ...how narrow it is really depends on them and whether they are really following the shepherd. God is just, but God is also Love and He is merciful. He wants all to get through the gate...sin keeps the gate closed or the entry narrow... not God.

Personally I think the Shepherd via the Holy Spirit is busy trying to get the sheep to find their way through the gate more than He is "counting sheep."

We must always remember when various biblical books and passages were written. They were written in the context of their own times...to understand that helps us see what they mean for us now. The remnant theologies seem to take certain scriptures way out of context...

The bible is to be taken as the Word of God and is for our spriitual edification, education, and growth...but always as directed by the Holy Spirit through the Church.

Which I know you know.

The 'remnant' theologies were started by individual and/or groups who took certain passages and put their own slant and interpretation on them and from that a particular type of doctrine and practice (maybe an entire church structure) got started.

Although these are difficult times...there is nothing really new under the sun..however, I think a definite remnant theology (so to speak) exists today among many Christians in the idea that there is to be a pre-tribulation "rapture." with only a certain amount of people taken up into the clouds to meet the Lord. Huge following for this..but has no real basis in scripture that makes sense if we look at the entire body of scriptures and not do what they do..i.e. take just a bit of it and make a doctrine out of it.

Your question surely does call for a response from our Eastern brethern.

Meanwhile, I hope these thoughts from a Latin friend do help...May you have a fruitful Lenten season.

Your sister in Christ,

Mary Jo

Good teachings y'all have expressed on this matter.

What always strikes me in the 144,000 is that basically we would be out of 'luck' if that were the case. I mean there are way more than that that have gone before us in Church history.

Also, if you take a gander at the JW, it is rather ironic that they take this numer literally. They must be looking at each other like a huge marathon - all running along, having to knock each other out of the way to be in that number that gets through the line first.

That thought of the number makes absolutly no sence to me in salvation history, because it contradicts everything that Christ teaches. He never, never gives a number of how many will come. He desires that we ALL turn to him, so if that is the case why would ther be only 144,000. To place that number into effect is basically calling God a lier. If there is one thing I know for sure it is GOD DON'T LIE!

Pani Rose

Mary Jo

Another thing I have noticed about "remnant" theologies is that those who teach them generally have no doubt that *THEY* are included in the remnant but doubt very seriously that anyone else is! I noticed this first in Protestantism. We used to joke in seminary that if only 10% are saved then suppose those 10% split off and formed a new church...it would stand to reason that only 10% of THEM would be saved too...and so on ad nauseum.

It wasn't til I came into the RCC that I found out there were similarly minded people even here.

Pani Rose,

I totally agree. To put numbers on it is basically putting a limit on grace. And God extends his grace to ALL. As you said "God DONT LIE!"

Jason a sinner

From what I remember of them they believe that the 144,000 was filled way back in the 17' hundreds. And so those 144,000 will be the saints in heaven sitting near God and being top managers (when heaven comes to the earth) - while all other JW's will just be saved from hell but no special place near God in heaven (they just will not die). And so while they get no reward - they are not sent to eternal death. All sinners go to eternal death in Hades. So the common JW at least escapes the fires of hell even if they do not get a an autographed picture of God for their mantel. (I am jesting a bit).

Something like that.

Of course they also believe that God has a body and hands and sits on a throne ... and heaven is a place like earth that has day and night etc..

A very very literal interpretation.

The only people I know who can deal with a current JW is someone who once was - a JW. It is really a de-programming. And only an ex-JW knows the JW stuff well enough to counter all argummets. If there is luck - the JW being de-programmed breaks down mentally. Yup. A break down. A flip out. And only then can you slowly help him to use his own God giiven reason and conscience.

Wow. Ya know what?

I was looking for how to respond to Jason regarding "Trust and obedience" and I wanted to show how obedience (in the OT) had developed into a loving cooperation and friendship in the NT.

Now HERE (the JW�s) IS the perfect example of a religion built upon - obedience.

Did some one �pop� this into your head for me - Rose?

on to my next post...

-ray

I just wanted to comment about the "naked" part. It refers to the fact that we are no longer ashamed of ourselves because we're no longer sinful creatures...we're no longer in a fallen nature. We're now restored to the original state of being before Adam & Eve fell into sin.

I have to respectfully disagree with the part about death being a grace. It is not. That's were there's a difference between Western and Eastern theologies.

To us Byzantines, death is indeed horrible and is itself evil. G-d did not create us to die. That was NOT His intention at the beginning. Death came to being because of our sinful fallen nature. It is Christ that restored our true humanity.

It is His Resurrection that ripped us from our obsessions, etc. [just as you stated above....God removes from us our pre-occupation (and obsessions) with the things and concerns of our animal nature (Paul�s Law of the members).......).]

It is His Resurrection that does all the great things...and is very graceful...not our death at all. So...in your assessment...about our physical death...replace it with Resurrection of Christ...in your sentences.

Does that make sense? I hope I'm on the right track as far as the Byzantine theological point of view.

That's why we sing this glorious troparion of the Resurrection for 40 days after Pascha:

"Oh Christ Son of G-d who is Risen from the Dead...thou has trampled down death by Death and granting Life to those in the graves."

So our can our death be graceful or good when He Himself trampled down death by His Death?

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Ray said:

And so while death (physical death) seems like such a bad thing to us - it is really a grace - when Providence does it.

spdundas said:

I have to respectfully disagree with the part about death being a grace. It is not. That's were there's a difference between Western and Eastern theologies.

To us Byzantines, death is indeed horrible and is itself evil. G-d did not create us to die. That was NOT His intention at the beginning. Death came to being because of our sinful fallen nature. It is Christ that restored our true humanity.


It is His Resurrection that does all the great things...and is very graceful...not our death at all. So...in your assessment...about our physical death...replace it with Resurrection of Christ...in your sentences.


That's why we sing this glorious troparion of the Resurrection for 40 days after Pascha:

"Oh Christ Son of G-d who is Risen from the Dead...thou has trampled down death by Death and granting Life to those in the graves."

So our can our death be graceful or good when He Himself trampled down death by His Death?

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine [/QB][/QUOTE]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Porter says:


Peace to you, brother in Christ. Your point is well taken. In a way you and Ray are getting to the same thing, but in a slightly different way. In all my years of studying and understanding Western and Eastern Theology as well as biblical studies, I have never considered death as a grace. Death is the result of sin. So please don't consider that all would say what Ray has said.

I would consider death as part of the process.... something we must go through. Sort of like going through a tunnel in order to reach the light at the end. The Resurrected Life IS that Light at the end of the tunnel. Christ has told us that He is the Resurrection and the Life. He is risen and because of that we shall rise in Christ. It is our common hope, our vision, our goal..As St. Paul says:

"Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is thy sting?" The sting of death is sin, and power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. " (I Corinthians 15:55-56)

Let us walk through this Holy season together and again rejoice when at Pascha (my Easter) we say.

Christ is risen! Indeed, He is risen!

Porter

Right. I agree. That is what the 'naked' section of Genesis is all about. It is not a literal nakedness. It is symbolic.

Which death are you talking about - physical death or spiritual death?

I am not a theologian and so I do not know about what you tell us is different between Catholic and Byzantine theologies. I, myself, am really not coming from one or the other theology, I do not speak for either here. When I say that physical death is like a grace because it rips from us etc.. etc� I am speaking for myself.

I do not know the exact Eastern or Catholic teaching (if there is one) but I do know for dead certain (pun not intended) that in the narration of Genesis there are two types of death used in the conversations�

1) a spiritual death (where the body may be living or not)
2) and the second type is a physical death like an animal corpse.

I wrote about this difference some place (but I don�t remember where)�

God says �If you eat of this tree you will die..� and the Hebrew word used means a spiritual death.

And the serpent says �Did God say to you that if you eat of the tree you will die?� and the word used means a physical death and the serpent continues �You will not die (and the word used means a physical death) but you will become like gods.�

And so clearly and unmistakable - there spiritual death is the result of sin� but physical death was not the result of sin (Adam and Eve continued to live and have children - according to the narration). Is physical death the delayed result of sin?

Maybe. But it is hard to think so when sinless things die (animals - plants - etc..) physical death seems to be a natural part of the cycles of nature. Perhaps our own fall (humans) into sin brought physical death into the world - but it also brought the sacrament of confession into the world (no one would call confession a sin).

Now think of this�

It is the time of a religious feast and people are required to make pilgrimage to Jerusalem and offer sacrifice in the Temple. A tower crumbles and falls � killing 10 pilgrims. No man had a part in the act (it was not murder) it was happenstance - coincidence - in a word - Providential.

Providence - selected the moment for the tower to fall and selected the people who would be killed.

The Pharisees come to Jesus and ask him �For what sins were these men killed (by God)?�

Obviously these Pharisees equate the death of these pilgrims as the result of a judgment of God on the personal sins of these pilgrims. And Jesus responds (paraphrased by me) �Why do you equate their deaths (physical) with sin (evil)?� And at other times (the Jews equated leprosy, blindness and deafness as forms of death and evils) Jesus cures someone and the Pharisees ask �Was it for his own sins or the sins of his parents - that this man was born blind?� and Jesus �For nether - it is an occasion to glorify - me.� Now that is darn close to saying the event was a grace given to mankind.

So, Yes (I suppose) Eastern theology (I believe the Muslims still hold this also) equated physical forms of death as evils.

But Jesus - did not.

Lazareth was only - sleeping.

Now - consider this� (as happened a few years back near here) a car is driving down the street and a tree falls onto it and kills the driver. What part of these physical events - was created by anyone other - than God? If it exists - God created it. And God can not create evil. And so God created and caused - this man�s death. The car - the movement of the car - the time the tree fell - the tree - the crushing of the metal - none of this is created by any other god but the One God - yes?

All these problems are caused by a misunderstanding of the narration in Genesis - by not knowing that the Hebrew used two words for death - just as did Jesus, Paul and John (first and second death) and always assuming a physical death is meant.

Does Catholic theology claim physical death is a grace? I do not believe it does. Neither does it claim it an intrinsic evil and is somewhat explicit that physical death is not an intrinsic evil.

-ray

I missed this post and am glad I found it now and read it.

Thanks Porter.

As always - a well rounded answer.

-ray

Hello Ray K,

It seems that you're contradicting a little...

How? By talking about physical death isn't result of sin...but spiritual death is...

How is that contradicting? Because Jesus rose from the dead...and His physical body and spirit are now once again united...

So, it seems to me like you're saying that there'll be no physical resurrection but rather a spiritual resurrection only by saying that spiritual death is the result of the fall of Adam...not the physical one.

So, of course...in my view...physical death is a result of the fall...as well as spiritual death.

To be TRULY a man...one must have flesh and soul together...to make up a MAN.

If a body and soul is separated by death...then we are no longer "fully human".

That is why, I believe, that Christ rose from the dead....trampling down Death...so He could grant life to both body and soul...to make us once again truly HUMAN...He restored HUMANITY.

That is why physical death is just as evil as spiritual death. It is EVIL...it's the work of the evil one...G-d never intended us to be that way.

We are not spiritual beings trapped in a body. We are ONE in body and spirit in ourselves just as G-d is one with us in the body and spirit.

Mary is the true model of Christians...because she is the first human (without any divinity) to be Resurrected...in body.

Another proof of that is that G-d said in the Revelations that He will make NEW Earth and New Heaven.....now...WHY "NEW EARTH"? Because that's where our resurrected glorified bodies can be in...we are PHYSICAL as well as Spiritual...meaning we are truly HUMAN...MAN in the flesh and spirit...just as G-d created us to be and intended.

In the law of physics...a physical matter have to exist within the realm of a physical dimension.

I don't know where the Body of Jesus is at now and where the body of Mary is at now...perhaps they're at the NEW Earth? (As Jesus mentioned in the Scriptures that He has set a place of our own when we die...).

Even at the General Resurrection...the evil ones will have a physical body once again...but only to suffer even much more in the pains of hell.

I hope I'm not jibbering jabbering here and there...and hoping I'm making some sense here...

SPDundas

By the way, when Christ died on the Cross...does that mean He also went through spiritual death? Just curious.

I don't think so because spirits (souls) are eternal...meaning it cannot perish and die...even in damnation it's not perished but only to suffer the loss of G-d and love...and suffer pain.

Do you mean...spiritual death as being in sin? Sin equates to spiritual death? And because soul dies...our bodies dies as well? (Because body and soul can't truly live without one another).
Deaf Byzantine

>Both of them twice.
Wow. Well - you must have liked something about them to read them - twice! But I admit I re-read them every few years.

Caussade = Providence = Reality (as a person)

Fromm = real human love = charity

>But I am having trouble getting away from
>the notion that i must 'do something about it.'

We all sin (I assume this is what you are talking about) and so we should all try (with reason) to do something to �fix� that. But - at the same time knowing that it will not get entirely fixed - until God sends the way in which it will get fixed and we cooperate with it when it comes.

While trying - there are some things we should NOT do.

We should always try - reasonably.

We should be as forgiving with ourselves as we would be forgiving and understanding of someone else in the same situation. We must never assign to ourselves a judgment and sentence (self punishment). We must not let ourselves get into depression (over our failures) that goes on to long.

So let us imagine we wake up and begin our day. Let me use myself as an example (I am just making an example and not claiming sainthood here).

I get up and don�t feel like going to work. But I need to work to get money to take care of family necessities. So - here - is the first thing that God wants me to do - go to work and support my family. And so (while I would rather stay home myself) my first bit of cooperation with the Will of Providence - is for me to get my butt to work (as that is the means God has given me to support my family).

Score �1� for Ray for cooperating with the Will of God!

Obedience� is when you do n ot know the why and where-fore. This - is a servant.

Cooperation� is when you do know something about the why and wherefore (I know that working is my means to support my family).

So let me change that to �Trust (in Providence) and Cooperation�.

So I go to work and while there - it comes to be that I had (unknowingly) made a mistake last week by over greasing two motors. The motors are burnt - will need replacing (at great cost) and who-ever did it (over greased them) is probably in big trouble and may even be fired!

Now - the normal human tendency is to think �OK - who might figure out that it was me? No one! Haha! So I can keep my mouth shut and let this whole thing go away - and not risk my job! Yippee! Heck - they are not even asking �who did it?� so I need not say �Me�!�

But while I am thinking that I could let this whole thing slide - my conscience says to me �admit you did it - and accept any consequences involved. Yup� you MIGHT get fired - but because you trust me - I want you to admit that it was you - and accept what-ever humiliation that would be - and perhaps I may never reward you for your honesty.�

NOW - HERE is a pickle!

Absolutely no one (not one! Is asking me to admit it was me� no one is trying to find out who made the mistake� I will look like a stupido if I say it was me� the whole thing could just slide away� and MY OWN CONSCIENCE is prodding me to say �I did that mistake� - with no promise of reward and every reason to believe it will not go well for me.

What - do - I do???

In this case, because of the clear prompting from my conscience - I admit it was me - and I accept anything that Providence (he is in charge) may meat out (through my boss) from it.

THAT is cooperation. It was also faith - because there was no promise of a reward (that things would turn out good for me).

Now notice something.

I was aware that Providence had made this situation. After all - I had really thought that I had done the motors properly. I was also aware that it might be Providence (prompting me through conscience) to admit it was me - when there was no human reason to admit it was me. (no one was asking).

So in this particular situation - I was called - to - do something (by my conscience).

Now - it makes absolutely no difference - how - this episode turned out. Me - being fired - or - me keeping my job. It makes no difference because Providence (who arranged the coincidence of the entire situation) has the power to fix it in any way he wants to. Fired on Monday from one job and coincidentally hired on Tuesday to a better job (if he wants to do that). And knowing God can do that - if he does not do that - he has good reasons not to do that. Now - THAT is real abandonment (abandone to God any excessive desires for something to turn out in some particular way).

While what I describe above is perhaps and extreme case - I want you to notice 1) the coincidence of the situation 2) the promptings of conscience.

Now here is a more mundane example�

It is 4pm and I am ready to leave work and go home and relax because it has been a hard day. My boss comes and wants me to stay and work late on some special project. So now - who?

Q: who is asking me to stay and work late?
A: my boss is.
Q: Is it God (using my boss) asking me?

The answer to that lay in using some human reason along with examining things via conscience.

And so a question of �obedience� here is not really applicable - because God wants us to use our human reason to reason things out and hold up things to conscience while doing that.

IF - my wife was very sick and my boss wanted me to work overtime - and that would harm here - then God requires me to say �Nope� and leave work and care for my wife.

IF - we need to money to pay bills and (while tired) no harm would come to me and my wife is fine at home - then God is offering me a way to pay the bills I should pay. My conscience says �Stay a few hours�.

There are many consideration which we might bring up in our reasoning - but the one you should go by is the one which is the most cooperative with your conscience. And IF you do that - you can NOT go wrong.

Eventually - this (reasoning and checking with conscience) becomes a habit. And you shift over from making all you decisions from promptings of self-providence - to promptings of conscience-Providence.

Now THAT - can seem to be a scary thing. After all - it is an unknown (Oh my dear! What will conscience say about things to day? How can I be sure my needs and securities are taken care of!!??)

The answer to that question lay in this �See the birds of the air? They neither sow (plan) nor reap (work hard) and I take care of them beautifully. Well - if I take care of them (who are not as important as you are) then how much more - do I take care of YOU?� - plenty more. But he takes care of your REAL needs (that is - what it takes to be formed into his own likeness) and wants to wean us from the false needs that we are so convinced we can not live without.

This all - takes - time (although he can do this violently and quickly - he prefers not to do it like that because the results of that violence is not a lasting result).

He does not violate our free will. And so how long this takes is really up to us (the more cooperative the faster). Yet - Providence has to arrange the whole thing (including what - when - how - etc..) and that decision is his and not ours. Neither should we concern ourselves with what he should be fixing - right now. Leave that all up to Providence.

Now - I have said all this in a mix of ways. I have included scriptural things and images.

Do you wish me to - leave God out of it entirely - and put it in a way in which you should still see - that even if there were no God - this is still the absolute best way to live... do you??

-ray

One more further note about �obedience�.

I could show - from scriptures - exactly how - the first understanding of God�s Will (obedience) developed (Providentially I might add) through better understanding - to Jesus�s �friend� and cooperation� I could fill pages with this and demonstrate till the cows come home (or you are dizzy and bored)�

Obedience belongs to the OT - Law.

And (Paul) not one person - ever - gained heaven through being obedient (to any laws - rules - etc..).

But instead of that (and you know how I love to display scriptures!) look at it this way.

IF - you are to gain heaven - it MUST be by your own cooperation (which requires that you know something about what you are cooperating with).

IF - you are simply being �obedient� - you are NOT using your own will. You are NOT using your own knowledge. YOU - are NOT making your decisions - someone else (who ever it may be) is making them for you.

IF - that is the case (someone else is making your decisions for you) how is it that God (Jesus) will judge - YOU? When nothing of what you did - was yours??

The answer to that is simple - he will judge you for NOT making your own decisions!

You can NOT - ride to heaven - on someone else.

Jesus will not allow slaves and servants into heaven - only friends and family. (using his images here).

IF - it is YOU - who are to be judged - then if MUST be you who is deciding what YOU should of should not be doing. And that is a cooperation via conscience - while being placed by God is arranged situations.

Now -
Q: which situations are arranged by God?
A: all of them.
Q: how do I know which are - and how and why God arranged them?
A: You will not know for most of them - and so you must assume - they all are - and act accordingly via conscience.

This (to return to scriptures) is the meaning of �You are neither hot nor cold - and so I spit you out!� it is the man who can not make decisions for himself. Be they right (hot) or wrong (cold) if they are not yours - you are automatically judged as doing nothing.

-So, it is, that the MOST important task any human has - is to take back - his power - to make his own decisions in life. And that power lays in - conscience (not in mental calculations of what should be done for the best gain in self benefits).

Cooperation - over - obediance.

-ray