Originally posted by Porter:
Hi Ray,
I agree...
unfortunately many are spending a lot of time on the matter of as you say, 'divinate future geopolitical events'. Ummmm. Now that is an interesting way to express it. I think it seems every so many years it comes to the theology of 'the sky is falling again'...maybe cause there is 'nothing new under the sun'.
About the last comment in your reply � it is water under the bridge.
As regards Daniel�
Yes� I spent weeks (part time) on it. It is slow going. There is much to study - around it. I can study the Hebrew but that is slow going as it is not native to me.
Fascinating really.
The Babylonian exile - quite a subject. It seems that between the time of Moses and the destruction of the First Temple� things had gone down hill. With the great wealth of the Davidic kingdom and Solomon - Israel had become a wealthy merchant nation and treated Yahweh as if he were a fertility God (like the Canaanites). So - after so many prophets come to warn about how Israel was now a whore - there was, what was called the Deuteronomic Reform (the start of the Pharisees). And all the too-detailed laws of the book of Deuteronomy - were written. (another example of how the OT is not in chronological order).
At first, Jeremiah was all for the reform� but then � since hearts did not change - he turned against the reform which only tended to even more treat God - as a fertility god. �Follow these precepts and it will go well for you.� became the motto of the Deuteronomy reform. The concept of �glory� came into being at that time - where how much wealth and cattle and such you had was your �glory� that measured your holiness. As in the gospels with the man born blind that Jesus gave sight to - when asked - the Pharisees replied ��Why should we believe you - who was born in sin..!� Worldly success became a sign of holiness (being favored by God) and troubles became a sign of sin or punishment for secret sins (remember the speeches in Job?).
A fertility god �If I say my prayers right and observe the ceremonies and keep myself from sin - I should have a smooth life.� How often to we think that way? Often enough.
In any event - because the (now profit seeking) Israelites decided to ignore the Sabbath years (called Jubilee by us) where they were to set slaves free and return all land taken in debit to its original owners (not a real sound economic practice) - and not plant or harvest that year �. so God gave the reason for the exile in 2 Chronicles and in the books of Jeremiah and Ezekiel (here paraphrased) �Because you have ignored the Sabbath years - I will give the land rest - from YOU!�
70 years (according to the First Temple lunar calendar cycles).
Jeremiah says 70 years, Ezekiel says 70 years, 2 Chronicles says 70 years and Daniel himself said he understood Jeremiah�s 70 years. And so 70 years it is and not 490 years.
So the point of the stories about the three cast into the fire and such - have a purpose. The point of them is not so much �have faith is you are unfortunate enough to find yourself persecuted� but more so the point Daniel is making is that (as off posed to the fertility god type concepts) - � Providentially arranged suffering (like being in exile) IS the tool that God uses to purify us. In other words �If you want to be my disciple pick up your cross and follow me.�. The cross - is not optional.
The man born blind - was not �born in sin� - he was born with a �cross� for his own purification.
Do you see the difference? Of course you do.
This makes me think of how many times in our lives - that we treat God as if he were a fertility God. How often - we pray and toe the line - because we expect the results of a - smooth life. And how often we see trivial life problems (being out of work - being sick - etc..) as punishments - or being out-of-favor with God.
In any event - the words translated as �70 weeks of years� is a mistranslation. It is not easy to tell you why� because it has to do with how numbers and formed in the Hebrew language. The same word root is used for the number �seven�, and the word �week�, and year. To form a plural - of a masculine word you give it a masculine extension - to form the plural of a feminine word you give it a feminine extension. Example: in English you just add an �s� to the word. Table (singular) becomes tables (plural). In the English there is only implied gender. In Hebrew there is a real gender (like French). The �trick� Daniel does is he form the plural of a masculine by using the feminine extension (ta-da!)
In English (as well as Hebrew) there are three forms of number.
Singular (one)
Plural (more than one)
And a dual number (feet, eyes, etc�) two feet - two eyes - a pair - a duality.
In the English we can indicate this duality (a pair) by a change in spelling (Example: foot / feet).
Suffice it to say that the real literal translation of the words in question are �seven set-of-seven� and not �seventy weeks of years�. It is the formula for calculating the Sabbath years as it appears within the Temple scroll of the Dead Sea scrolls set.
So where as Daniel already said he understood Jeremiahs �70 years� as the length of Exile - Gabriel does not contradict that (as he would have if he has answered seventy weeks of years - 490). Gabriel replies with the standard Temple formula for calculating Sabbath cycles - which is the same thing Jesus does when he replied to Peter (�How many times should I forgive?� ... �Seventy times seven�). That answer (seventy time seven) is the same formula given in month cycle.
You see - there are four Sabbaths� a cycle.
Sabbath day (every seven)
Sabbath year (every seven)
Great Sabbath year (every seven Sabbath years - 50 years)
And the �perfect� Sabbath cycle that resets it all to begin again (70th year).
That - is all there is of the Sabbath lunar cycle.
If you will to research it go here...
http://www.creation-answers.com/ and email him if you care to. Mention me.
That may not make sense to you because it is according to a Lunar month - 10 lunar months equals one lunar year. A bit of study to learn these cycles and I am not done there yet. This lunar calendar was not used after the exile. The second temple calendar was corrupted due to the necessity of economics (dealing with other nations on an economic basis). The first temple calendar has only been partially recovered by researchers.
How do you calculate each type of Sabbath in the Sabbath cycle?? - by using this one formula
Seven set-of-seven.Except for the base (seven days) all others are found by - seven times seven sets (of whatever type of Sabbath you are counting by). .Seven times seven sets of week-Sabbaths, or seven time seven sets of Sabbath years - or seven times seven sets of great Sabbaths - or seven time seven sets of perfect Sabbath years �. See? It is a �generic� formula for locating any of the Sabbath cycles.
Of course - seven sets of seven - also applies to the seven visions� that is - seven cycles (the seven visions).
Anyway�
As interesting as all that is� it has also dawned on me that - God probably has a reason - that we all begin believing in him - through an idea of a melleniaraisn like �return�. Did we not all begin by believing and expecting some type of - physical face to face accounting of our action. If, regarding all those who expect a millionaires like accounting - if we remove their belief - but yet they have not a more mature belief to replace it with - have we done them - any favors?? Perhaps - not.
There is a Jewish law - �Do not tear down another man�s temple - least he have no place to worship God.� That law is the reason why Israel does not tear down the Dome of the Rock Muslim mosques - and built the third Jewish Temple.
So� while I have made some good progress on the structure of Daniel - is there any wisdom to me - publishing it? Probably - not.
It is a pious zealot attitude which tries to fit historical events with the visions - up to the time of Jesus (490 years). It is a mistake.
Scriptures has three levels of meaning (and three only)
A literal meaning.
A moral meaning.
A spiritual meaning (allegorical or pre-figurative or prophetic meaning).
The literal meaning of Daniel was fulfilled in 70 years (the end of exile and building of the Second Temple).
The moral meaning of Daniel is - providential suffering bringing about spiritual transformation. Pick up - your cross. Metanoia (as you said it so well).
And the prophetic meaning of Daniel is - the immediate events surrounding the life of Jesus Christ (his arrest, crucifixion and resurrection).
The prophetic meaning does not cover 490 years - it really only covers a short time (a few notable events) of Jesus life down here.
The problem with melleiarnist like interpretations � is that they are trying to make the prophetic meaning the - same - as the literal meaning. And so they look to have the literal fulfillment be the
same as the prophetic meaning.
The literal meaning (the end of exile and rebuilding the Tempel) is �
symbolic � of the prophetic meaning (the last days of the Son of Man - Jesus) - they are not the same thing. Those who misinterpret try like hell to make it - the same thing. They are obsessed with sequential time
The book of Daniel was completely fulfilled literally (end of Babylonian exile), morally (pick up your cross) and prophetically (death and resurrection of the Son of Man).
But - it would do no one much good for me to �publish� any more details on the structure of Daniel and what it means. You, yourself - were on the right track with your interest in a comparison of the Son of Man vision with the Lamb of God vision�. And the last events of Jesus life.
I am sure that if God were here right now - he would advise �Let every man read it and take from it what he needs for his faith.� And it would be wise for me (us) not to disturb that and upset those who, as yet, have no need to dig deeper.
Perhaps the man who needs to dig deeper is at a disadvantage from those who need only simple things to have a vibrant faith.
-ray
Sounds like you are doing something like that, but let us see more of you round here ya hear!! 
