www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Help with Greek in John 1:1

Hi Everyone,

I need help disputing John 1:1 with a Jehovah Witness that believes he is knowledgable in Biblical Greek.

I believe the Jehovah Witness New World Translation says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

While all other Christian translations read:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." [John 1:1 NAB]

What is the Greek in this verse in the English (Roman) alphabet?

Please comment on grammer, word definitions, context of the biblical Greek. Anything so I can correct this JW.

I would really appreciate it!

In Jesus and Mary

BradM

Dear Brad,

In my experience with the witnesses, even if you show them the actual Greek (which I have) they will say that is wrong and only they have the correct Greek.

A former JW once told me that one thing to do is to ask them for a list of their bible translators, their names and bios, their academic background - to see if they are even qualified to translate etc.

One such fellow retorted, "We're not interested in giving glory to men!" I said I only wanted to see if these "translators" were qualified to do what they say they do.

There is also the fact that the New World Translation is based on a translation of a man who was, apparently, possessed. My ex-JW acquaintance told me that the JW's acknowledge this, but say their translation was based on when he was still O.K. . . .

Ask them where the 27 books of the New Testament came from - why 27 and why THOSE 27?

Also, ask him why the JW organization forbids its members from reading scriptural and other religious books other than those published by the Watchtower.

He may deny it, but it is true. The WT teaches that a JW can be disfellowshipped if he or she reads such, or else studies scripture that is not the NWT or else studies scripture alone without the interpretive frameworks provided by the Watchtower organization.

And if Jesus was "a god" what does that mean? Does it mean that the JW's believe in a pantheon of gods? They say Jesus was formerly the Archangel Michael before becoming man - but He was not an "incarnate angel."

They also say the Arians were their forebears.

If that is true, then why don't they worship Jesus as the Arians did in their liturgy, despite the fact they believed him to be less than His Father?

If you want to speak to this fellow, take him where there are icons, make the Sign of the Cross frequently, pray that the Lord Jesus open up your eyes to the Truth so that both of you may follow Him according to God's Will etc.

The JW group is basically a 19th century rationalist cult that rewrote everything Judge Russell's reasoning couldn't accept and tailor-suited his views to the Bible's.

Be nice to him, offer him a beer, tea and cookies - depending on how far you want to go with this.

I knew a woman who converted a JW with her cookies. When the JW got to know her, her organization told her she was damned if she didn't join and if the JW woman herself continued to see her. It was then that her eyes were opened and she realized she was in a cult.

Remember also that they have forms where they write down their perceived level of your opposition to their teachings. If they think you aren't that opposed, they will keep coming by.

Alex

Dear Brad,

I tried to persuade a JW that Jesus is God. It made me miserable.

I won't engage them in discussion again. They are totally locked into Unitarianism. I won't even open my door for them.

Some of them manage to escape.

Mother of God pray for them.

Paul

i read some of their lit they passed out to my wife one day, when i was not at home (if they would have come in and seen the Ikon Corner, they would have passed out). In the lit, it said that the notion of "Trinity" was ridiculous and polytheistic (since it is impossible for three persons to be of the same essence). God the Father is the only god. Jesus is a created being (the pamphlet did not mention the incarnation be St Michael), and the Holy Spirit does not exist (as the Holy Spirit is an action, and actions are not persons). I would have thought it all funny had it not saddened me that people actually believe it.

I'll try to respond more later...as a former JW I found that I was more impressed by other argumentation on the Deity of Christ than debating Greek grammar and translation. For beginners, I highly recommend the booklet:

Jesus of Nazareth--Who Is He by Arthur Wallis, published by Christian Literature Crusade. It approaches the subject from a totally different perspective. Wallis wrote this with JW's in mind but without mentioning them by name.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Thanks everyone for responding. I will take your advice to heart but I would still like to know what John 1:1 reads in Greek, what each word means, the sentence grammar, and why that last part is translated "and the Word was God". Just for my own knowledge.

Thanks,

BradM

Hi Brad,

I know I have seen the answer to your question on this archives of Johannian writings. I don't know where for sure, but it is here.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesearch?query=john%201%3A1

Check out these articles by Ken Guindon (former JW now OCA) at this link:

http://home.att.net/~kguin/files.html

You'll have to use Adobe to read them, however. One is on the identity of Jesus according to John. It should answer most of your questions on the subject.

A great introduction to how to evangelize the JWs can be found at:

http://www.webshowplace.com/question/home.htm

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

When/why did Ken Guindon become Orthodox? I could've sworn I used to listen to him on EWTN radio, and heard his conversion story from JWism to Roman Catholicism on that station, among other things from him. I'd appreciate any information anyone has about this. Thanks.

Probably the best way to find out would be to go to the link above (which is his site) and ask him.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

BradM

Like the good Book says, "Ask and you shall receive."

Here's the Greek:

John 1

1. En archee een ho Logos, kai ho Logos een pros ton Theon, kai theos een ho Logos.

Here's the literal translation and order of the Greek words and the corresponding Strong's number references:

John 1

1.
|1722| In
|9999| {the}
|0746| beginning
|2258| was
|3588| the
|3056| Word,
|2532| and
|3588| the
|3056| Word
|2258| was
|4314| with
|3588| -
|2316| God,
|2532| and
|2316| deity
|2258| was
|3588| the
|3056| Word.

Hope this helps. Lets all say "Thanks God" for modern technology because I don't know a lick of Greek

In Christ's Light,

Ghazar

/
--------------
\

That's Soorp Ghazar (St. Lazarus) my Armenian family's namesake

p.s. This post was a mistake so I just thought I'd write something to fill the space

If you're into technical Greek stuff, this commentary is fascinating:

http://www.forananswer.org/John/Jn1_1.htm

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear Friends,

Yes, but the JW's don't accept that that is the correct Greek in John.

As Dave says, the entire New Testament has many other instances that show the Divinity of Jesus better than any grammatical/language argument.

Although I don't recommend this, I've read the NWT of the JW's to see where they've altered what.

The alterations are quite remarkable, as they are disturbing.

But they still can't take away from Jesus a number of things that show His Divinity.

In addition, the JW's make much of the Arians and their connection to them.

In fact, they are an entirely NEW group and have NO connection to the Arians.

The Arians actually had no one single view of Jesus but were united in believing Him not to be the equal of the Father.

Many Arians were like the Mormons in this respect, calling Him a "Great God" and worshipping him liturgically etc.

And, in fact, our Calendar has a listing of a number of Arian Saints, including St Sabas the Goth and his 70 Gothic martyrs, St Nicetas etc.

Their baptism was recognized as valid etc. and St Constantine the Great was himself baptized by an Arian priest on his deathbed.

The Church did not doubt the validity of Arian sacraments or that they could have saints as a canonical, if heretical, Church.

Since the JW's do not worship Jesus and regard him as a mere man (the Arians were united in believing Jesus to be MORE than man and to be worshipped), they have no historical connection to the Arians.

They simply do not exist in church history prior to the 19th century.

Alex

I made a mistake calling JW's Arian in belief.

Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia:

"Jehovah Witnesses are Unitarian in belief; they deny the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Jesus."

The article goes on to decribe other JW beliefs. I listed the above to give a brief summary of their errors.

I'm sorry for any confusion I caused.

Paul