www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Help with Greek in John 1:1

Dear Paul,

Actually, you didn't say anything wrong.

Insofar as the JW's deny the Divinity of our Lord, they truly ARE Arian.

My point was just that they are not the Arians of old, as they like to make the argument that they were the "long-lost" Arians who have just now come back to life etc.

The Arians of the time of Arius were a Church with valid sacraments, liturgy, episcopacy et al. who paid Divine worship to our Lord Jesus, even though they didn't accept His equality with the Father.

In fact, one would be hard-pressed to notice Arianism in an overt fashion in their Gothic liturgy, just as one would not find Nestorianism in the Assyrian services etc.

In every which way except their doctrine concerning Christ, the Arians were like any other historic and Apostolic Christian Church.

The JW's are nowhere in that tradition.

Alex

Hello:

I wouldn't bother with Jn. 1. The JW's are well shielded against translation issues on this particular passage.

I would try alternative strategies.

In the Old Testament, YHWH revealed Himself as the One True God. He also said that He was a jealous God, and that He wouldn't share His name and the worship that was due to Him with *anyone else*.

And yet, in the New Testament, we find God not only allowing, but explicitly demanding that very same kind of worship for Jesus Christ. And God is not offended by this, but rather, He is glorified when Jesus Christ is acknowledged as Lord.

In the New Testament, God gives Jesus a name which is above all names (unqualified "all"), which is even God's own name.

So, did God change His mind about sharing? Not likely. It is easier to assume that Jesus Christ is not *anyone else*, but God Himself.

Also. In his vision, the prophet Isaiah explicitly claims to have seen YHWH, and yet, the apostle John says, making an undeniable link to that particular prophetic vision that what Isaiah saw was the glory of *Jesus*.

In the Old Testament, the forerunner makes a way for YHWH; in the New Testament, John the Baptist makes a way for Jesus.

In the Old Testament, the throne and scepter of YHWH are eternal. In the New Testament, the throne and scepter are of Jesus.

In the Old Testament, YHWH founded the earth in the begining, and the heavens are the work of His hands. In the New Testament, these works are credited to Jesus Christ.

In the Old Testament, YHWH is eternal, unchanging, and transcending creation. In the New Testament this is said of Jesus Christ.

In the Old Testament, YHWH is the groom of the People of God. In the New Testament, Jesus Christ is the groom.

So, is Jesus Christ less than YHWH? Quite frankly, the scriptural evidence strongly indicates the contrary.

If Jesus Christ is equal to YHWH, then do we have two (or more) Gods? Clearly not. The whole Bible strongly and explicitly teaches that there is One and only One God.

What is the only alternative left? Well, that Jesus Christ *IS* YHWH.

I tried this line of reasoning once with a group of JW's I invited for a "Bible Study" (if they are with me, they cannot be spreading their poisonous heresies somewhere else) and it worked with the least experienced ones. The "advanced" guys said that they would have to consult with their superiors, but that I had to be wrong.

Interesting, I'm still waiting for the next session of our Study.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

You is good, Big Guy! You is good!

I'm beginning to feel sorry for those JW's . . . but only a little

Alex

Memo's post reminded me of an article I wrote in my Evangelical Protestant days entitled "Is Jesus Yahweh?" It was published about 12 years ago but that Protestant ministry and I have parted ways and since they are also anti-Catholic they no longer carry any of the materials I prepared under their auspices. I just did a search and found the text of my article on a parish website for an Orthodox parish in Canada!! It's at:

http://www.sthermans.ca/resources/tower/yahweh.html

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Oh, Dave! You beat me to that.

I came today to write that the ideas I expressed in my previous post are not originally mine, but taken from a book written by Robin Vogsland.

Robin, a Confessional Lutheran, has written the most magnificent Scriptural study about the Holy Trinity I've ever read.

Curious indeed, that such bright light in orthodoxy comes from someone who belongs to a heterodox group, don't you think?

Shalom,
Memo.

Thanks everyone for the responses! I saved all the URLS you refered to me.

Peace and God bless,

BradM

I have a friend who is very active in helping JWs. Funny - before one came to work for him - he had little interest in the bible (but did believe in God). After a few months with the Witness - he began calling me at home "Ray - what about this thing here..??" he would ask about biblical passages because he knew I had done years of research into Jewish culture of the times. Soon - he was off reading the bible for himself - comparing the JW version with many other versions and would only call me when he needed some help with the Greek.

He invited some JWs to his house - weekly - and was very cool in showing them their contradictions. Man - did they leave upset - he would often debate with three at a time (you know how that tag team works).

They are a very tough case (as you know) because they do have plenty of knowledge (be it from the 17th century and peppered with 17 century mistakes).

He contacted organizations that assist JWs when they leave - a de-programming (if you will) - and now he is helping them! He is a resident expert on helping Witnesses through the mental trauma.

If you were once a JW - then - my hat is off to you my friend. What you have overcome - few can know.

My heart is with you - and more importantly - please remember me once or twice in your prayers because - if you have suffered as much as others (in making the transition) then your suffering is precious in God's eyes - and he will incline his ear to you - Please ask Him to - remember me - that is all "Remember Ray."

Thank you.
-ray

"I believe the Jehovah Witness New World Translation says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

BradM;

I have not taken the time to read other responces here and I am sure there are some good ones.

I talked to a friend of mine over this. He is somewhat knowledgably in dealing with the JWs. He said �

�The best you can do is stump them - ask them this�.�

Clearly the verse is referring to Jesus as the Word (he will agree with you on that). If the verse says� �and the Word was A god." � then this means that there is more than one God� there are others� and if the bible says there is only one God (he will agree with you on this) and you should worship - one God - then who is the real God?� This all hinges on the use of the word �a� to designate one from all others. This is the only way the word �a� is used.

My friend tells me that rather than trying to convince a JW of something - it is better to know the contradictions in their beliefs - and to ask them questions about it. If you try to tell them something they have been trained well �around it� � so what you do is bring to their minds these holes and contradictions and hope that they eventually will see that there is a problem in their way they have been told what scriptures mean. However if successful in this you will bring them to a crisis of doubt. They either will bring in reinforcements or cease to speak with you. Let me explain.

The JW cult - is very similar to early Calvin Protestantism, in that, the workings (its logic) is this. Here is the basic of their thinking = if a man is saved by faith - then the path to faith - is to no have doubts.

So you must repress - doubts. If you erase or repress all doubts - then - you are left with - faith. In itself this method of �mind control� or self repression does not work. It is an endless cycle. It is man�s attempts to re-program �the computer� of his own mind.

This, of course, is not the Catholic way. On the whole - Faith is a gift - that removes doubt. It is a grace. Yes, there are times and moments when a Catholic does well to ignore his doubts - but this is not the mind control that it is in these cults. One grows in the Catholic way by the grace of God and one must go at the pace God sets (not run before him).

For the Catholic - faith removes doubt. For the Calvinist and Jehovah�s Witness - the removal of doubt produces faith.

Faith, again, in the Catholic, comes as a gift from God. One can cooperate with it but one can not �grow� it. That is why the apostles are �fishers of men� because if you have ever been fishing you know that your part is to put out the bait - and wait. Providence must bring the fish to your hook. You do not catch fish - fish get caught. God brings them to you. There is nothing you can do but wait to see if there is a tug or not.

Let me give you an example. I had a fired who was an Evangelist. His son came down with a type of Leukemia. The father lead the family and based upon the misinterpretation of this line �If you have faith - and tell this mountain to move - it will move� (paraphrased) he refused to take his son to a doctor because, if he did, he felt would be doubting God�s ability to cure him (and they prayed long and hard for a miracle cure). Do you see? As long as he did not doubt God - and he boosted his faith - he expected a miracle. I am sure you must have heard the words �I claim this miracle!� as if to convince yourself and everyone else that it is as good as already having happened.

The day came that his sons scrotum swelled to the size of grapefruits - and he gave in and took his son to the hospital. But too late - it was too progressed and his son died.

Do you see the thinking? It is that one must �work his faith up - and repress all doubts�.

To this day, if you ask the father, he will tell you that he failed to have enough faith, and that is why his son died.

To a Calvinist as well as a Jehovah�s Witness - their biggest fear is - doubt. If they begin to doubt what they are told to believe - then they must try to fix it. If they can not fix it by themselves they must go to �elders� and be reprogrammed in that area and must make great efforts not to doubt what the elder tells them. If they continue to have nagging doubts - they must self-repress them. Keep in mind that to them - having nagging doubts is a ticket to hell� a sign that you are not a chosen one. Often, this self repression becomes a greater part of their life and they are always monitoring themselves for �doubt�.

This is how I find it to be.

Dear Friends,

Dave Brown is truly a great treasure, having struggled greatly in his journey to God!

His site is a wealth of information and devotional treasure and we are all blessed to know him and to feel the benefit of the Spirit working in him and through him.

Alex

Hello Brad:

As Ghazar has said the Greek for "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" is

En archei een ho Logos, kai ho Logos een pros ton Theon, kai THEOS een ho Logos.

The English doubled vowels indicate a long Greek vowel. "En archei" is "in the beginning", "ho Logos" is "the Word", "een" is the verb "was", "kai" is "and", "pros ton Theon" is "in the presence of God".

I have capitalized the word "THEOS" where it causes us the present concern. It means "God" and is said to be in the nominative case. One of the uses for the nominative is to express the so-called "predicate nominative" after the linking verb "was". The subject of the clause is "ho Logos", "the Word": Who was? The Word was.

But "what" was the Word? The Word was "God", "THEOS". "God", "THEOS" are said here to be predicate nominatives Note that this usage of "THEOS" is like that of, say, "estudiante" in Spanish if I were to say "Yo soy estudiante", which means in English, "I am a student". Note that Spanish, like Greek but unlike English, does not use an indefinite article with the predicate nominative.

Why do I bring all this up? Well, to give a feel for the Greek idiom here, and to show how it differs from the English. As it happens, Greek has only the definite article "the", not the indefinite article "a/an", though English and Spanish have both the definite article and the indefinite article. As we have said, however, Spanish and English in the predicate nominative differ, English using the indefinite article but Spanish not using it.

"God" or "the God" (definite) is expressed in Greek by writing the definite article "ho" "ho Theos", or a form of it, e.g., "ton" in "ton Theon". "A god", however, is just "theos" (no article), since Greek lacks an indefinite article.
Since Greek does not have an indefinite article it shows the equivalent of "a god" by using theos without any article.

Well, the Witnesses justify their translation "the Word was A god" by pointing to this Greek usage. They say it means "A god". What they forget (or never knew, or refuse to admit?) is that in the predicate nominative position Greek, somewhat like Spanish but unlike English, does not use either an indefinite or a definite article anyway, even though, as I have said, in other positions it always uses the definite article "ho" with the word "Theos" to mean "God". So the Witnesses' argument from the lack of the article means proves nothing. Indeed, if it proves anything it proves yet again that Scripture is not perspicuous, and that "Sola Scriptura is unworkable! We need Holy Tradition and the infallibility of the Church's magisterium.

I hope this is of help.

John McAlpine

Welcome to the Forum, Descendant of King Kenneth McAlpine!

Alex

Just came across this URL for the JW New World Translation. It's a huge download and I only recommend it for the serious student who is studying to refute them:

http://www.justjws.worldfriend.com/WTCD/NWT/nwtcomplete.htm

Dear BradM;

Alex is right. Listen to him.


Where is this taking place that you are discussing scriptures with him?

This is a cult and they are mentally trained. Programmed. They will run circles about you. You may think you are making headway - but what is going on is they are actually very patient in working on you. You will go round and round with him and if he feels like he is beginning to doubt he will report himself and elders will coach him. You will then be arguing with a whole team - through him - and not know it.

There is a common human tendency to want to be nice and agreeable and compromise. They will exploit this on you. They are very patient and have been trained for years on how to rope you in.

This translator was once a priest (I think) but he went over to spiritualism and became a medium getting his translation through s�ance. Most reference to him has been removed from their literature but if you know where to look you can find it.

Good advise here.

Did you ever see the type of sci-fi movie where - to stop the cyborg you must find the flaw (the contradiction) in the programming and when you do the robot begins to quake and not know what to do? Mental breakdown? this is a bit what it is like. Reason does not work. You must know the contradictions in their dogma and continually bring them round to these - again and again. But they must be ready to turn inside - else you waster your time.

If he may be about to turn - he faces a nervous break down. No kidding. To leave the JW means an almost total mental breakdown. Often, when a JW leaves there are also past child-molestation issues to deal with.

The only people that I know of, who can successfully remove a JW - is other ex-JWS.

If you feel the need to help this person - I can put you in touch with people who can help you.

Be warned - there is nothing �fair� about discussing things with them. If he is discussing things with you I can guarantee his handler knows all about it.

They even have undercover people watching fellow members. I forget what these are called.

-ray

en arche en ho logos, kai ho logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos (in the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God)can't get any clearer
here it is in Latin
In principio erat Verbum, et Verbumerat apud Deum, et Deus erat Verbum.
if this text is not clear to them ask them why the other texts of the bible show divine worship being given to Jesus.

And by the way they are an Arian heresy, in fact it almost look like their leader copied word for word from Arius's writings.

Stephanos I

Ouch - my head is spinning.

:rolleyes:

It is good to see a master at work.

-ray