www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Traditional Anglicans Seek Union with Rome

Looking through the list of these 60+ Churches, I notice that it includes groups who are quite militantly Protestant (such as the Church of England in South Africa and the Reformed Episcopal Church in the USA) and who are utterly unlikely to consider uniting with some of the other groups on the same list - in fact it would be difficult to imagine even a common meeting with representatives of all 60+ groups.

Incognitus

Dear Fr. Mike,

Thank you for the list which you have graciously provided us with.

This listing (found on Anglicans Online) is actually of those groups which reportedly claim an "Anglican" patrimony/heritage, but are not in communion with the See of Canterbury.

Therefore not all of these groups are "Continuing Anglicans" or Anglo-Catholics.

Many are, as Ingonitus reported, militant evangelicals, and even some are ultra liberals.

In one of my previous replies to this post I listed those Anglican groups which are indeed Anglo-Catholic and have a higher level of church organization.

The following website provides links to many of the parishes in the U.S. that are Anglo-Catholic, not all are under the same jurisdiction however.
Anglo Catholic Central [societies.anglican.org]

Also, it should be noted that the TAC which is the group interested primarily with unity with the Roman See, is actually quite evangelical in outlook, but Catholic in practice.

Hope the link is of some use to everyone,

ProCatholico

A related news.

The Archdiocese of Newark, NJ, made public that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) named their Archbishop, the Most Rev. John J. Myers, as the new "ecclesiastical delegate" to work with American bishops who have Anglican/Episcopalian priests in their dioceses who want to become Catholic clergy.

He replaces Cardinal Law, the Archbishop Emeritus of Boston.

Based on this news item, there have been 78 ex-Episcopalian priests in the U.S. since 1983 who have been "re-trained" and allowed to become Catholic priests, 3 are presently undergoing re-training, and 4 are pending final approval by the CDF.

Rest of the story:

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-1/1129699905141140.xml&coll=1#continue

Amado

Brothers & Sisters:

Regarding the below item, let me say that a "power find" using the 2003 Episcopal Clerical Directory for "received from Roman Catholic" pulled up 380 records (out of 17,871 listed in the Directory.

Just for your info.


Fr. Mike+

Originally posted by Amado:

"Based on this news item, there have been 78 ex-Epicopalian priests in the U.S. since 1983 who have been "retrained" and allowed to become Catholic priests, 3 are presently undergoing training and are pending final approval by the CDF>"

Brothers & Sisters:

Regarding the below item, let me say that a "power find" using the 2003 Episcopal Clerical Directory for "received from Roman Catholic" pulled up 380 records (out of 17,871 listed in the Directory.

Just for your info.


Fr. Mike+

Originally posted by Amado:

"Based on this news item, there have been 78 ex-Epicopalian priests in the U.S. since 1983 who have been "retrained" and allowed to become Catholic priests, 3 are presently undergoing training and are pending final approval by the CDF>"

Father Mike,

This 380 number would be expected, wouldn't it?

Firstly, there are far, far more Catholic priests in the U.S. than there are Anglican priests/ministers; it would only be logical to assume a larger number have gone from Catholic to Episcopalian than vice versa, based on the sheer numbers.

Logos Teen

Dear Logos Teen:


I agree but I was only trying to let people know that some RC clergy are moving to the Episcopal Church....and that those that I have had contact with have turned out to be excellent pastors. The overwhelming majority of them end up getting married.


Fr. Mike+

The suggestion that TAC orders are 'null and void' may be inaccurate as most, if not all TAC priests have Old Catholic lineage. It seems the TAC's are sacramentally Old Catholics who use the Anglican Rites and Liturgy.

Dear Michael_Thoma,

Not all TAC clerics have an Old Catholic lineage. In fact, a great portion of them were once Anglican (Canterbury Communion) priests who left their ministry and came directly into the TAC. To be perfetcly honest, I know of no TAC priests personally, who's lines are solely Old Catholic. Furthermore, the Primate of the TAC, Abp. John Hepworth was a former Roman Catholic priest.

Therefore, to suggest that the TAC is sacramentally Old Catholic is incorrect.

In reality, the TAC has always maintained itself to be an Anglican Commmunion. Had the TAC seen itself otherwise, they would have termed themselves "Old Catholic in the Anglican Rite" or something to that effect.

ProCatholico

Dear ProCatholic,

I am not attesting to the accuracy of this argument, only that it has been made. Below is an excerpt from another site discussion this issue:

The reason that it need not call into question Apostolicae Curae is because of the Old Catholic participation in various Anglican episcopal consecrations since 1932 (in consequence of the “Bonn Agreement” of 1931 between the Church of England and the “Union of Utrecht” Old Catholic churches — and the agrteement between the Episcopal Church and the Polish National Catholic church here in America in 1946). It was precisely because of this Old Catholic “infusion” that Graham Leonard was ordained to the priesthood only conditionally after he had become a Catholic in 1994. When Albert Chambers (one of the two bishops who performed the first Continuing Anglican episcopal consecratons in Denver in 1979) was consecrated Bishop of Springfield onOctober 1, 1962, Bishop Francis Rowinski of the PNCC was one of his consecrators. The TAC bishops have submitted all of this material to Rome, and they are maing their case for the validity of their Orders based on the so-called Dutch Touch of 1932 onwards. The precedent of Graham Leonard indicates that it has at least a fair chance of succeeding.

And that is why Anglican Orders are reviewed on a case by case basis. It is not presumed that they are valid or invalid, when one converts to the Catholic Church.
Stephanos I

for me it's not so much a question whether they have the correct lineage, as whether they profess the true faith.

while "true lineage" should mean true faith, apparently it is not an absolute guarantee.

Herb

Just a differentiation between the TACs wanting to come under Rome and the TACs now meeting in Cairo, Egypt, for their "3rd Worldwide Conference."

The first group are parishes/dioceses which may or may not belong to Anglican/Episcopal provinces and which may or may not be "in communion" with Canterbury. As mentioned before, they claim to have around 400,000 congregants disperse in parishes around the world, notably in Australia and in the U.S.

The TACs now meeting in Cairo are representatives of Anglican Provinces, i.e., currently, and still, in communion with Canterbury, from the Southern hemisphere, foremost of which are those from Africa, Latin America, and Asia. These Provinces are in open disagreement with the "liberal" Anglican Provinces of the West, especially that of the U.S., where an openly gay bishop was recently ordained. If this group, calling themselves the "Global South," chooses to come under Rome, which is unlikely, they command the loyalty of more than half of the 70-million worldwide Anglican Communion!

See story at:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/23102005/325/traditionalists-divided-anglican-church-meet.html

Let's be forewarned.

Amado

Herb,
"correct lineage" as you call it is extremely critical, because it determines whether there has been a valid or invalid ordination he the "realness" or "efficacy" of their ministry.

Three things have to be present for a Sacrament, as would follow also for the "Sacrament of Ordination."
1. Matter - a male
2. Form - a liturgy (words of the ordination rite.) ordained by a valid Bishop of Apostolic Succession.
3. Intention - to do what the Church does, including the idea of ordaining a sacrificial priesthood.
While at most times the Anglican Communion has followed #1 and fewer times #2 it has never met the requirement of #3.

Amado, praise to God if this were to happen it would be wonderful.

Stephanos I

Dear Michael_Thoma,

Thanks for the clarification on your point.

I am curious however, where was that excerpt taken from?

-------------------------------------------
Dear Amado,

We should be careful when using the abbreviation "TAC"

This is almost exclusively used to describe the Traditional Anglican Communion, which is not in communion with Canterbury.

Those meeting in Cairo, are indeed tradionalist Anglicans, but certainly not members of the TAC proper.

Just wanted to clear that up, as I easily get confused

ProCatholico