www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News "intercommunion" -- whether non-Catholic Christians may receive holy Communion.

Jason, God's grace is not confined by the church, yet we can't presume to know in which way it operates outside of the church. God is not bound by the sacraments, yet Christ through his church has set bounds for how the principle ones (including the Eucharist) are administered. We are not free to change that.

Andrew

Dear Jason,

I found your post excellent. BRAVO! You expressed what I have not been able to.

Zenovia

I am going to jump in here, and try to seperate two lines of thought that are being crossed. Andrew (Rilian) is bringing out the order and discipline in the Church. For one to receive the sacraments one must meet the respective criteria that is required in their respective Church. That is done by preperation through the sacraments. He also brings out the point that no matter how well intentioned you may be, it will not earn your salvation. This we have by the writings of the fathers. The church requires that those that desire full membership subscribe to not only the teachings of the church, but also the discipline.

Now Jason, Zenovia, and others feel that there are those that outside of the Church live a life of sanctity. They may really do, but they are still seperated from the fullness of membersip in the church, because it is their unbelief or rejection that holds them outside for what ever reason. No one here is in the position to judge sins, not even the priest. He follows a discipline in confession that re-established that reunion with Christ that we seek. That is the peace and love we feel when we walk away from the sacrament.

Zenovia, brings about the admittance of persons into the sacraments that may be in sin. She explains that the priest is using eoconomia. My guees is the priest is exetending it on thier own with out the approval or backing of the hierarch. Each priest has an up to date guidebook that spells out the guidelines. If he choses to ignore the part in which eoconmia must be granted from his bishop, then he causes spiritual harm to the person and to himself in violating the discipline, which make the days he exercises his ministry shorter and possibly be removed from the priesthood.

One criticism that I can appliy to both Orthodox and Catholic Churches in North America since thre period of Post Vatican II, Is that we have become very weak in how we educate our faithful. I review cathecetical materials on a regular basis, and finally I have started to create my own materials. The reason why I am doing this is that we seem to look at the established churches of the west and are following there teaching methods and materials. No wonder such confusion reigns.

We are not to judge others, unless we want to be subject to the same scrutiny. The time is that we need to educate our faithful en-masse to the teachings of the church. Maybe when all have the praxis down, then we can truly start discussing ways at unity.

I agree with the party that one should not judge another by affliation that they are saved or comdemned. But I also state that as the Church teaches, it is the ark that bring us towards salvation. If you remember, besides saving the creatures only the righteeous followers of God were onboard and saved from the death. Thus the rule of communion, and the churches stance on inter-communion.

Little can be resolved at this point without actually documenting the policy of each, have it examined, then pick up the discussion from there. I leave you with this to ponder. My best friend from High School is an Chrurch of the Nazarene pastor who visited one day. He asked if he could partake in communion. I questioned him before the Litugy as to his beliefs. I stated that you can openly declare that this is the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ and that you accept the faith of the Orthodox to be true and that your own faith lacks fullness, you can come forward. He attended the Liturgy, and did not approach the chalice. Afterwards I ask him why he did not approach. He replied, I do not believe that it is the Body and Blood, nor do I accept the teachings of the Church. To them it is a re-enactment of the scritpture, nothing more than that, and definitely not something that is filled with grace.

We are not judges, but guardians to the faith and heritage we have received. We can point fingers saying so and so does that and is living in sin. Maybe they approach out of ignorance, and maybe they are under the obedience of a confessor, or maybe...

Right now there are rules and standards. While the Eucharist is the sacrament of Love, we ask all that love God enough in sacramental fellowship and discipline to be that community of faith and uphold its standards. If not the only alternative is to fall into the syncretism that many have to in the past. I pray daily that the Lord may enlighten them and help bring them into the fullness of His Holy Church

I ask your forgiveness.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Andrew,

Have I suggested that we ARE free to change it? On the one hand, im not talking about the Eucharist or intercommunion at all. I'm stating as clearly as I can that I am only speaking to the fact that sanctity does exist outside the church and that it is rash to say that one reason, among others, that protestants cant take communion is that they are most likely in mortal sin.

Jason

Wise cousel Fr. Anthony, thank you.

Fr Anthony,

Thank you for your wise discernment. You really distinguished between the two lines of thought going on in the thread. I appreciate your patience with us.

Andrew, if I have offended in any way I ask your forgiveness.

Jason a sinner

Dear Father Anthony,
Forgive me, but I can't resist. You write: "For one to receive the sacraments one must be full standing in their respective Church. That is done by preperation through the sacraments."

This appears to mean that in order to receive the sacraments one must receive the sacraments!

Again, my apologies.

Dear All: in response to my reporting the simple fact that in many Eastern Catholic parishes there are Eastern Orthodox Christians who make their Confessions and receive Holy Communion, another contributor has written "this is certainly wrong". If the contributor is challenging the veracity of my reporting, I can bore him to death with an unlimited list of places where this goes on.

Someone else commented in horror that this couldn't possibly be allowed by the bishops. I'm tempted to use a slightly discourteous expression to indicate that the bishops are well aware that this goes on, and have been known to direct their priests to continue to give these people access to the sacraments in question.

So I confine myself, for the moment, to the suggestion that arguments are not terribly useful against facts, and that the phenomena I have described are easily verifiable.

Incognitus

Yes indeed, our parish is one who has many Orthodox members though we are Catholic. It has been this way for years now.

Dear Incognitus,

Thank you for the correction. When you are tired you make some mistakes.

Also what Icognitus has brought to light about faithful "crossing" lines is true and vice versa. We may not like it, but it does happen and is a fact.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Jason,

I don�t deny sanctity exists outside the church, and I don�t believe I said those outside the church are in a state of �mortal sin�. I actually don�t buy in to the idea of division of sin in to mortal and venial varieties, but that�s a different topic.

What state of sin Protestants are in is unknown since they haven�t confessed their sins or received absolution for them. That is really why are not in a position to receive IMO.



Not at all, I hope my replies haven�t been too offensive, but they probably are.



I will assume my another contributor persona again and flush out what I meant a bit more. I�m not at all denying that such things happen, nor do I deny what Zenovia stated earlier about overly liberal use of ekonomia.

What I meant was quite simply this practice is wrong. I�m not saying that because I don�t like Catholics or I delight in saying offensive things. I mean it is wrong from the standpoint of what the church teaches about the sacraments, and in particular the Eucharist. To act is if there is unity of faith when there is not is to place our judgment above that of the church, and that�s a dangerous road to go down. I would say one of the principle risks is the nature and perception of the Eucharist itself will change. Communion should be the last and not the first step of unity (laying aside exceptional circumstances, but I don�t think that�s what�s being described here).

I would also mention that we have several Catholics at our parish who attend regularly, and have done so for years. Father does not commune or confess them, though I think it would be pastorally expedient for him to do so.

Andrew (aka another contributor )

"What state of sin Protestants are in is unknown since they haven�t confessed their sins or received absolution for them. That is really why are not in a position to receive IMO."

Yes Church discipline (Canon Law) requires that mortal sins be confessed and absolved through the Sacrament of Reconciliation before Communion, but this applies only to Catholics.

The teaching of the Catholic Church is that it is contrition that forgives sins. Receiving absolution while not contrite will certainly not obtain forgiveness.

The devout Protestants I know are contrite for their sins. I conclude that the legislators of the current Canons took this into account when they issued the current rules. To suggest that all Protestants are in a state of mortal sin because the do not have the Sacrament of Reconcilitation has no sound basis in theology.

Fr. Deacon Lance

An interesting article that confirms Brother Roger did not convert but also offers an explanantion why he was communed:

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504883.htm

Fr. Deacon Lance,

This was my point entirely. Thank you for clarifying what I could not.

Jason a sinner

Fr. Dcn. Lance,

I was also taught that contrition is a necessity for the forgiving of sins.

But I was also taught that only perfect contrition can forgive sins without the Sacrament of Confession/Reconcilitation. Is that not true? I've never heard any Catholic teachings to the contrary, even for exception for the Protestants.

Maybe there are some, but until we can identify them as well as their orthodoxy, how can we possibly believe that Protestants who are not perfectly contrite for their sins are fit to receive Our Lord, even if they believe in His Real Presence.

Logos Teen

LT,

Only God knows who is perfectly contrite, Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant. You don't know if the person coming out of the confessional is perfectly contrite so don't worry about anyone else, especially when an allowance has been made in canon LAw that has taken all this into account.

Fr. Deacon Lance