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Originally posted by Hritzko:
I agree that many people who now identify themselves as Bielorussians were members of the Greek Catholic Church and they even had members of their group who were Metropolitans of the Kyivan Church. The Bielorussian Greek Catholics historical right to recognize the Kyivan Metropolitan see is THE ONLY potential reason for a name change to our church.
I COMPLETELY agree with one reservation: not only Byelarussian (?) people, but also Carpato-Rusyns, Slovaks, "Byzantine Church of the eparchy of Krizhevtsi", maybe even Bulgarians - may (should?) be counted here. Of course, church unification (which is impossible without name change) might be done only as a result of "conciliar" consent, not by unilateral decision of the UGCC's hierarchy.
You state that the people who now idendify themselves as Ukrainians were a small minority of the total Greek Catholics in the 16th century (ie: first century of the Unia). I find these adherance figures questionable even without the Lviv, Peremysl, and Mukachiv eparchies which did not join until the early 18th century.
I meant rather 17th century. Why do you question my statement?
Does anyone have the specific figures for 16th century Greek Catholic adherance in what is now Bielorus and Ukraine ?
Well, some scholars (late L. Bienkowski, his disciple W. Kolbuk, A. Mironowicz) did some estimations. Generally speaking, until the end of the 17th century "Uniate" adherence on strictly Ukrainian territories was very weak.
I think that our UGCC Patriarch and bishops have a big enough battle with the Russian Orthodox Church on Ukrainian territory. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church which tried to establish itself on Russian soil was 'bullied' out - churches closed and priest threatened with death if they continued. The UGCC would face the same type of fate - or worse. IMHO, there are 'pectore' (secret) bishops for both the Bielorussian,
I know nothing about secret (GC?) bishops (for who? - the rest of your post seems deleted), but there are a few legal (i.e. recognized by the state) GC parishes in Russian Federation, especially in Siberia. But despite of possible fate of other parishes, the worst passage in what Cardinal Kasper said was about Greek-Catholics in Russia, because he refused them their right to have any episcopal or quasi-episcopal structures! How could we leave such a statement without reaction! Sincerely, deacon Peter
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Dear Deacon Peter,
Could you qualify the Bulgarian comments? Can't quite make it out! Thanks
Anton
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Originally posted by incognitus:
First, the priest whom the Pratulin Martyrs were seeking to bar from their Church was, in fact, Greek-Catholic.
Yes, he was Galician Greek-Catholic. I clearly stated this.
Second, it is difficult, even impossible, to believe that after only thirty years (1875-1905) NOT ONE priest or parish wished to return to the Greek-Catholic Church in the Eparchy of Kholm. So who prevented them? And anyone who claims it was the Tsarist government had better be prepared to prove that assertion.
You should take into consideration that some of "resistant Uniates" didn't want to be Eastern Christians any longer. Persecutions made them extremely anti-Eastern. And yes, Russian authorities were against return to Union. The best proof is the fate of RUSSIAN GCs in ethnic Russia. Even they are only "conditionally" tolerated! In the eparchy of Kholm the situation was worse because the people in question were of Ukrainian origin and there was no church structure for them to return. The Russians have at least a few priests able to act.
Third, the Polish RC bishops did everything possible to prevent the formation of Greek-Catholic parishes after World War I, and succeeded in restricting them scandalously (I use the word "scandal" here in its full meaning to moral theologians). The abuse and mistreatment of Bishop Nicholas (Charnetsky), now numbered among the Blessed Martyrs, are a matter of historical record.
Well, you're basically right about the facts, but what does it have to do with my remarks from previous post? Did I say otherwise? BTW, Polish Latin Bishops were not a group with complete uniformized views. Bishop Henryk Przezdziecki of Siedlce was very active in supporting that Neo-Union movement and he even tried to obtain from the government a consent to create two "regular" Byzantine Rite eparchies, one for Ukrainian territories, the another for Byelarussian.
Fourth, the Polish RC bishops tried to compel the Greek-Catholic priests after World War II to accept the Roman Rite. Some did. Others went to the Orthodox Church of Poland. Only Father Alexander Prylucki - and may his name be ever among the blessed - managed to stave them off; thanks to his heroism the parish of Saint Niceta the Martyr, in Kostomloty, still lives.
Do you write about Galician GCs, or "Neo-Uniates"? Well, let this be true, but what does it have to do with my previous post? Sixth, Metropolitan John (Martyniak) has organized Galician Greek-Catholic pilgrims to come and venerate the holy relics of the Martyrs of Pratulin. My dear "Incognitus", are you really so naive? His Grace organized completely nothing, he only "led" or "presided over" or what you like. The real organizers are our two priests of Lublin. But, from the other hand, our Metropolitan is at least conscious about problem of Podlachia/Kholmshchyna, existence of Byelarussian and Russian GCs and so on. You have some point. 
The Galicians are not some sort of sacred ethnos. But neither are they the ones primarily to blame for the near-death of our Eparchy of Kholm.
The problem is that our people (well, as a GC I am a member of the church almost exclusively Galician, so I even can't call Galicians "they") are not ready to admit that some Galician GCs in 1866-1905 did horrible things and the rest of them did nothing to help their persecuted brethren. It's the simple fact, and you can see the reation to this. Sincerely, deacon Peter
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
I do think you read too much into His Beatitude Lubomyr's statement.
It was not his intention to deliver a comprehensive statement about the fate of EC's everywhere, especially in Russia.
He was defending his own UGCC in this instance as it is under attack - its move to become a patriarchate etc.
Well, Metropolitan Andrew was quite certain, that Russian GCs are "ours" too. And GCs in today's Russia are, as everyone knows, predominantly Ukrainian. They were refused their right to have at least an exarch! How did our "Kyiv-Halych" Synod react (it was synodal letter, not His Beatitude's!)? No reaction at all!
It's really not becoming for a Ukie in Poland to dump on his Church leader, you know - at least that is how I perceive your words.
Do you think that His Beatitude is ignorant of the plight of EC's in Russia? Have you not been following the news over the years about how Russian Catholics have been approaching our bishops in Ukraine to help them - and their hands were tied by the RC Church? There was a public statement by one of our bishops to this effect not too, too long ago.
Yes, late Metropolitan Volodymyr (Sterniuk) tried to help GCs in both Ukraine and Byelarus'. But this - and even some other positive facts - doesn't change the thing I mention: our hierarchy of Ukraine did nothing to publicly defend the cause of our GCs in Russia.
I've also met with visiting Russian Catholics who have told us in our parish that they greatly appreciate all the help that His Beatitude Lubomyr has been trying to give them and all his support.
Yes, His Beatitude have much prestige - not only among Russian GCs. And what this fact has to do with the synodal letter in question?
And I, too, was only referring to you and not to the historical Ukrainian community of Poland in connection to the martyrdom of Pratulin etc. It seems to me that you are PERHAPS too ready to defend Poland in a lot of this!
I don't defend Poland. I simply wrote about the role of Galician GCs in 1866-1905. We, the UGCC, should be at least ready to admit the truth.
Galician Ukies are not your enemies
Did I write otherwise?
Met. Ilarion Ohienko has also written a book on the issue of how, for about 400 years, Ukrainians themselves were called, by others, "Belorussians." I haven't read it, but I would guess it might go a long way to discuss the issue you raised about Galicians being a minority in the GC Church.
Not "Galicians", but Ukrainians. Yes, they (we) were minority in the "Uniate" church until the end of 17th century.
The idea that somehow our historical Ukie differences would impact on how the Pratulyn Martyrs, Greek-Catholics after all, would be venerated and where - I think we should just grow up a little, should we not?
Yes - we all should grow up. The Latins too!
How exactly have our churches, EC and Orthodox, fared in general under RC Poland? Pre-war Poland or the Habsburgs - it makes little difference in terms of the actual impact.
??? Are the Hapsburgs Polish rulers? And do you really think that Hapsburg rule did not change the situation of the "Uniate" Church?
Correcting the record about the title of the union of 1596 is one thing.
Doing some hard revisionism of our Church's history
Which "revisionism" do you mean? The role of Galician GCs in 1866-1905 was always well-known just read memoires of Metropolitan Andrew (Sheptytskyi). Sincerely, deacon Peter
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Dear Father Deacon,
Could you be more specific in your complaint against the Greek-Catholics of Galicia in the period from 1866-1905? I can easily think of some criticisms myself, but I don't wish to debate myself (at least not in public!). One issue stands out: in Galicia the movement for liturgical authenticity was gaining ground (and the book of Marcel Popiel on this topic was not without influence), while the liturgical situation in the Eparchy of Kholm was much worse than it was in Galicia. It is entirely possible that at least some priests in the Kholm Eparchy resented the Galician movement, and that the difference disconcerted the faithful of the Kholm Eparchy - but Metropolitan Andrew was a most important supporter of the movement for liturgical authenticity.
It would be fascinating to have a thorough study of Marcel Popiel and the priests from Galicia who went from there to the Kholm Eparchy to support him - again, it is possible (even likely) that he gave his friends good postings, and this too would have caused resentment. Unfortunately, it turned out that the papal documents to which Popiel appealed had no "cash value" - this was neither the first nor the last time that that has happened! But the blame for this does not rest on Galicia.
You could be referring to a political matter: the whole national question in Galicia and in the Kholm region, where things were perceived differently. But until you explain what you have in mind, I shall have no way of knowing.
As to Metropolitan John (Martyniak), I have every reason to believe that he takes a keen interest in the matter of Greek-Catholics in the Kholm region, in Podlachia, and so forth. I don't always agree with him about everything, but he is no fool.
Incognitus
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Dear Father Deacon Peter, It is just that you seemed, to me, to come off rather angry at His Beatitude. If you are not, that is good! But the GC's in Russia situation is not something that was the theme of the synodal letter in question. You want something to be in it that would detract from its main and really only theme (which is why it was written) the current situation with respect to the Patriarchate of the UGCC via Rome/Moscow. And ultimately do you not think that the situation of the GC's in Russia will be helped with the establishment of a UGCC Patriachate? I think that it would. So your complaint is your own view that you are entitled to. But I think that, right now, we should all be more concerned with solidarity with our Patriarch/Major Archbishop than with nit-picking about something that WE KNOW he is concerned about and has been trying to do something about. Sorry if I accuse you of nit-picking - I don't why I chose that term . . . The fate of GC's in Russia has more to do with Rome than with Lviv, after all! As for the Greek-Catholics in history, the fact that the Union was weak in Ukraine is NOT necessarily a negative thing, especially in light of contemporary issues! What is the feeling for the Unia in Belarus today? Would they return to it in the numbers that they had before? And the fact that there were Russophile Greek-Catholic priests and others who were indifferent etc. - that is not news. We still have those individuals today. Have a nice evening! Alex
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Dear Father Deacon Peter, The figures that djs gave (thank you) concerning Greek Catholic adherance in what is today Belarus are interesting, but fail to indicate if they represent individuals, parishes, bishops, etc... To complicate matters, up until World War 2 the population of southern Belarus (south of Minsk and Pinsk) had a heavy ethnic Ukrainian component who may be counted as Belarussian based on the geographic boundaries we are using. If you have the time, go online and view 'The Ukrainian Youth Association - SUM' web site. Go to the 'Ukraine' section and then (po nashomu) look at the current affairs of the 'Lviv' and 'Sokal' branches of the organization. You will notice that the organization has expanded into Belarus to serve the large Ukrainian population there. The church is doing the same  . You bring up very interesting points concerning the lack of pastoral care for the Greek Catholics in the Russian Federation. The 'Russian Greek Catholic' parishes you mention basically do not have church buildings. Also, even though the vast majority of the parishes are ethnically Ukrainian, the priests register them as Russian so as to not draw too much attention. It seems that this lack of a Ukrainian identity and the fact that they are in Siberia where there is little Orthodox church life, has kept them 'under the radar' and away from harm. I have metioned earlier the fate of Ukrainian Orthodox Churches which have attempted to establish themselves in European Russian (one in Moscow). The churches were vadalized, permanently closed, and the priests evicted and threatened with death if they ever returned. These were very public events which seemed to enjoy the protection of the Russian State. The overall problem of the Greek Catholics in Siberia has little to do with Patriarch Lubomyr as you suggest, or with the Vatican as Alex has mentioned. The problem is that the Russian Federation is not a free and democratic society where churches can establish themselves and prosper. This is compounded by the fact that there is a complete lack of national political support by the Ukrainian Government for these ex-patriates who have found themselves within the Russian Federation. One of Ukrainian President Kuchma's biggest problems (he has may) is that he is an 'old Soviet man' who has not been able to loose his inferiority complex (menshvartosty) to the Russian 'masters'. Therefore, Ukrainian president Kuchma and his senior ministers refuse to even discuss the fate of Ukrainians in the Russian Federation. On several occassions, Askold Lozynsky, president of the World Congress of Ukrainians has DEMANDED that the Kuchma administration speak out openly in defence of the lack of religious, cultural, educational, and political rights for Ukrainians in the Russian Federation. The Kuchma guys are are simply too intimidated by the Russian bear - they actually tell Askold this. Let's face it, Ukraine almost whent to war with Russia (again  ) this past summer, this time over Tuzla, a little stip of land near the sea of Azov. Relations between the two countries are not 'civilized'. Patriarch Lubomyr needs at a very minium the political support of the Ukrainian Government before he openly supports the Greek Catholics in Russia. Victor Yuschenko, a social democrat, is the lead contender for the office Ukrainian president's office. As president, he would support the patriarchate and the rights, including those of Greek Catholics, in Siberia. He may even challenge Rome to be more supportive of the Greek Catholics in the Russian Federation. Hritzko
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Some time ago I cam across a tabulation (can't find the link) of registered parishes (ca. 2002) in the each district of the Ukraine. Here are some of the numbers:
District MP KP AC GC RC
SubCarp. 508 3 0 299 84
Lviv 62 362 352 1460 126
IvFrank. 23 270 151 664 25
Terno. 114 177 195 751 73
Chmel 721 69 60 16 118
Zhitomir 459 73 3 5 102
Vinnits 637 46 55 10 115
Kiev 509 274 29 15 27
Chernov. 383 133 0 13 25
All other districts had less than than 26 EC or RC parishes (whichever the higher number).
What surprised me most about the numbers was the large presence of RC - substantial numbers that are well over GC numbers - in Chmel, Zhitomir, and Vinnits. Is the history discussed on this thread connected to these weird numbers?
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Originally posted by Hritzko:
There are a few clear messages in this news story:
(1) The announcement of a Kyivan Patriarchate is fast approaching.
(2) Pope John Paul 2 has informed the Moscow Patriarch that he will not forsake the needs of the Ukrainian Church for a pseudo-ecumenical dialogue with the Russian Orthodox Church. The Holy Father has 'blown off' the Patriarch (ie: grow up !)
(3) The Moscow Patriarch has over estimated his global and even regional (ie: CIS) power of influence. He has also overestimated the Pontif's 'desire' vs 'cost' to visit Russia.
(4) This offer by the MP to meet the Holy Father next summer in Poland, is a last minute desperate attempt to blackmail the Catholic Church (ie: we can still meet, even in Poland, but just stop them Ukrainians from declaring a Patriarchate). Greg, How you read these "clear messages" into the news story is a mystery to me. (1) A Kyivan Patriarchate is not addressed even tangentially by Cardinal Glemp and, let's note, it was Glemp's statement that precipitated the response by the MP's people. (2) "The Holy Father has 'blown off' the Patriarch." I read that the MP is blowing off the Pope, not the other way around. Glemp says JP will be here, the MP could be; they could meet. The MP says, no, not unless issues are resolved. (3) Where? (4) "This offer by the MP to meet the Holy Father next summer in Poland" is the reverse of what is stated. Even from a "byzantine" way of thinking, this is a far stretch. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by djs:
What surprised me most about the numbers was the large presence of RC - substantial numbers that are well over GC numbers - in Chmel, Zhitomir, and Vinnits. Is the history discussed on this thread connected to these weird numbers? Dear DJS, Infighting between the different principalities and the devastation of the 13th century Mongol raids of Kyiv-Rus rendered the lands easy prey for her neighboors. Poland was initially a big winner of newly acquired Rusyn territories. A large part of what is today 'Western-Central' Ukraine and Bielorus where part of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth for several centuries. The new rulers brought with them their Roman Catholic faith into every town in which they had a presence. Many Jews also made their way into each town to conduct 'business' for the rulers. As a rule, the cities and larger towns were more Polish Roman Catholic and Jewish, and the rural areas and smaller towns were Greek Catholic and/or 'Orthodox'. There has been for centuries mixed religious 'communities' all over the former lands of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Commonwealth was truncated over time, and after WW2 fell totally into the Russian / Soviet spere. There were significant population exchanges between neighboring countries (forced and willing) after WW2 which forever changed the landscape of what is today modern Ukraine and Belarus. Large numbers of Poles and their RC faith moved to Poland. Large numbers of the Hungarians and their RC and Protestant faiths moved out of Zakarpattia to Hungary. Carpatho-Rusyns (GC and Orthodox) moved from Slovakia to Ukraine. Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Orthodox from Poland and Slovakia were moved into Ukraine in large numbers. The Jews were in large numbers exterminated by the Germans and/or for the first time in centuries resettled in large numbers East of the traditional 'Pale Settlement' to what is commonly known as Russia. I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. Eastern Europe was forever changed. The new colonizers, the Russians, moved into all of these lands in large numbers and forced many churches to join their ROC. The Greek Catholic bishops were executed or sent to Siberian hard labour camps. The Roman Catholics were only permitted to survive in very limited numbers under close supervision of the secret police. Some Greek Catholics whent over to the Latin rite church which was 'legal' because they felt that this was the only option open to them. Remember, being exposed as a member of the underground Greek Catholic Church was a sentence to life of misery by the rulling Russian Soviets. Most however whent to the ROC or face deportation to Siberia. Joining the godless communists was yet another option. After independance, many of the churches which were repressed by the Soviets and the ROC began to surface again. Ukraine and Belarus now have SOME adherants to ALL of the churches mentioned above in all of the 'Western' lands, BUT the proportions in each has changed dramatically over the last century. After WW2 there was a dramatic change, and a second post WW2 reorientation of church affiliation. The main point of my rambling is that: (ACTIVE) CHURCH ADHERANCE DOES NOT EQUAL COMMUNITIES (not even close). Government statistics put UGCC adherance at about 5 million, and RC at 200,000. The RC church initially claimed up to 700,000 across Ukraine. I have visited small Roman Catholic communities in what is the 'Rava Ruska' area between Lviv and the Polish border where a Roman Catholic communitee in some cases consisted of 4 famillies to a church. The churches were receiving substancial financial aid from Poland and could survive. The other (+)hundred plus Greek Catholic famillies were also counted as 'one communitee'. The areas you mention in your post were under Soviet rule from the end of WW1. Any church which identified itself as 'Ukrainian' (GC or Orthodox) was eliminated in the great purges / liquidations of the 1920's and 1930's. These people have in today returned in large numbers to the UOC-KP church. Now add to this complex picture, the new Prostentant sects and the Fr. Taft "Oxymoron" description of "church adherants in the East" and you can see just how complex the 'numbers game' really is. I have mentioned before, the 'Atlas of Ukraine' by Rober Magosci of the University of Toronto as a great tool for better understanding the history and people of Ukraine. The soft cover sells for about $26 and the hard cover for twice that amount. It's easy reading (mostly maps) with brief descriptions of history, including in some maps church affiliation, and ethnic settlements with each. Sorry - but in this book he states that Carpatho-Rusyns are Ukrainians . Hritzko
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Dear Neil, I can't believe that after 4 years of living in Boston I have been invited to an 'A' crowd Irish brunch in South Boston (ground zero), then we will all go see the parade. I can't wait. Do you know any good Irish jokes that would help me break in ? I was going to wear one of my brother's Ukie shirts which has only Green shades (+ small amount of black) embroidery. Do you think they will like it or think I'm weird like everyone else  ? Hritzko
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Could someone tell me, is the Patriarchate on again?
Stephanos I
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Dear Hritko:
I do have a understanding of the general themes in the history of the region. And certainly recognize the difference between number of parishes and devoted parishioners. What I am interested in specifically is this: in what era did this relatively large number of RC parishes develop (..., partioning of Poland, ..., post-WWII); what were the influences of this development (migration, GC's going RC rather than MP, etc.) I am wondering if history that Peter is discussing is relevant to the answers to these questions.
By the way, the stark contrast betwen the big three UGCC districts and Sub-Carpathia in the distribution among Orthodox churces provides some insigth, ISTM, in the way folks in these regions identify.
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Dear Stephanos,
The Ukrainian Catholic one or the Moscow one?
Alex
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Ukranian Catholic one.
Stephanos I
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