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Could you all just calm down a bit and read St Catherine of Genoa's Treatise on Purgatory? Or for that matter CS Lewis on the same subject? I think Eastern Christians are often reacting against regretable Latin tendencies to express the doctrine in judicial terms that I, even when a RC, found distasteful. The essence of a doctrine must be distinguished from the way it is explained [or imagined]. The essence of the thing is that few souls die without some residual need for purification before being able to bear the Presence of the All Holy One. Combine that with the idea that God is "all-consuming Fire" and the insight of some of the Fathers that the difference between the fires of hell and the fire of Divine Presence is a subjective one, that is, it is one fire perceived differently according to the capacity of the soul and voila! you have a doctrine that should bridge the gap...

All this wrangling over Purgatory and such was also found in the Luther movie. As a Byzantine Catholic, the Paschal mystery still reigns supreme in my spirituality. It was the Resurrection, not doctrinal speculation that served as the core of the Christian message. This mystery is the epi-center of our entire liturgical and theological tradition. I am unaware of a Feast of Purgatory or a Great Fast of Filioque. Though the Luther movie can be faulted for poor historicity, it did drive home one good point: 'Christ' is still the main root word in Christian and Christianity. This is a lesson that we all can re-learn again and again.

Joe Thur

As it should for all Christians, whether of the East or West.

The first "treatise" to know and understand is the Gospel. Then we can work out from there.

Amen. My point was only that St Catherine's vision of pugatory, given to a Western saint, might pleasantly surprise many who don't think they believe the in the "western" doctrine of purgatory. I have always found it a good antidote to certain Latin imaginations of the doctrine, even to some semi-official explanations of it.

And it is a private revelation, therefore may or may not be worth the paper it is written on. Don

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Yeah! Usually this kind of excitment is reserved for discussions on homosexuality and the Church!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB] Dear Friends,

Certainly, that movie is controversial.

But "anti-Catholic?" How so?

If the Church made mistakes in the past, is it anti-Catholic to bring them up?

The Pope regularly apologises for such - is he anti-Catholic?

That Luther was anti-Jewish religion is a fact. So were a number of the Fathers. But "Anti-Semitic?" Anti-semitism is related to the (erroneous) idea that Jews are a race (rather than a religion).
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But they are a race, or at least an ethnic group, the tribes of Isreal are all descended from Abraham, as recounted in the Old Testament.

Dear DavidinVA,

No, there were and are adherents of Judaism that are descended from converted European, African and Asian nationalities.

The Khazars, over which the Kyivan Prince Svyatoslav won a victory, converted to Judaism. Ethiopians were once all Jews and their Christian Church today reflects many Jewish practices still.

There always were foreign, non-Israelite converts to Judaism.

To be a "Jew" is to be a follower of the Jewish religion in the first instance.

When I went to public school, I heard many Protestants associate being Catholic with being Italian or Portuguese (!).

And I've been called a "Ukrainian Mick."

I've only one Irish aunt in my family . . .

Alex

Dear Tim,

The internet is a great thing - but I still find books and journal articles to be the way to go!

What Luther said of the Eastern Church is something that I've seen rather frequently in works on his era.

I'll look up a reference for you once my work life issues have settled.

There is a site of a Lutheran Rite Old Catholic Church called the "Evangelical Catholic Church" on the internet and you might want to find that site and ask the people there about this.

They use Luther's seal but with an Orthodox Cross over it. Their revamped liturgy is rather beautiful.

Alex

Dear Friends,

I think C.S. Lewis himself commented on Purgatory in his book "Mere Christianity" and compared the views of Purgatory as held by saints such as St Thomas More.

And he disagreed with More as to Purgatory's morbid character etc.

The West has tended to have more than one understanding of what Purgatory is and the CCC's current definition is, most definitely, inspired by Eastern theology.

There was a time when all Catholics, including Catholic teachers, had to make a special confession of their faith in which they had to say they believed in a Purgatory (I have it in the back of my old Greek Catholic Euchologion).

The CCC makes no mention of the matter of having to accept the terminology.

As to whether Purgatory is a place or not, the West has also shifted its position from the time of the Council of Florence.

As Meyendorff and others have shown in discussing the proceedings, the Greeks refused to accept that there is a purgatorial "fire."

And in the end , the Latins did not "require" them to accept the notion of such a "fire."

What was even more amazing to the Greek theologians was that the Latins had, by the time of that council, developed a series of "places" in the afterlife to which a soul goes even before the Second Coming of Christ i.e. heaven, hell, purgatory with limbo for the unbaptized etc.

So there is no doubt that the Latin Church considers/considered Purgatory to be a "place."

The Eastern Churches have been content with the view that nothing impure can enter Heaven and so there is a dynamic process in place by which a soul after death is purified and helped by our prayers and Liturgies here that enable it to increase its union with God.

I'm sure rationalist reflection on Purgatory and other matters in the West will continue in future.

Alex

Dear Daniel,

Yes, Purgatory is a Western view and one that is based on a juridical notion, as are indulgences.

The East has always rejected this type of "accountancy" eschatology in the West.

Sorry if that offends. But when I was growing up, I used to do all sorts of calculations of indulgences, plenary, toties quoties, 300 days etc.

In the end, I worried about whether I had fulfilled all the obligatory acts necessary to obtain those indulgences and whether I had the requisite detachment from sin to be worthy of a plenary indulgence etc.

When I discovered my Eastern heritage and embraced it more fully, I came to realize that we cannot know "how much" Grace etc. God bestows on us.

And I know that we must pray unceasingly, sacrifice and suffer in union with Christ throughout our lives as we ascend to Him beginning in this life.

For me, the discarding of all those Western views truly freed my spirit.

Perhaps I had misinterpreted them.

But there's no way I want to have anything to do with "revamped" views or "the real view" on what are, at base, juridical views on salvation and sin that may be fine for the more pragmatic Western Christian.

Alex

Dear Daniel,

One further point - your quote of St Catherine of Genoa.

She was privately devoted to Jerome Savonarola.

When her canonization process was in full swing, the matter of this private devotion to a monk who was excommunicated and burned by Church authorities had to be appealed to the Pope.

Potentially, it could have side-tracked her Cause.

But the Pope of the day ordered the matter to be "passed over" or "praetermissus."

FYI.

Alex

Thanks for the lecture on the inadequecies of the Internet. That darn smiley face almost makes it seem like you're not being sarcastic!

Your "better half" quote did turn up on another Internet forum, by the way. The "source" linked back to something else you wrote on that same Ukrainian Orthodox site.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/815256/posts

(it's in reply #11)

I'm asking you directly, and not another Internet site, because you'd think that since you've seen this pretty amazing quote "rather frequently," and you quote it rather frequently yourself, you'd have at least one-easy-to-find source.

It's not that I doubt your accuracy, of course. It's just that I'm from Missouri on this one.

--Tim Cuprisin

Dear Tim,

Yes, I hope I'm not being sarcastic, but it is just that whenever I mention something on this forum that is not common knowledge (which happens a bit, you know ), then I'm given the third degree by people who want to know what book I saw it in, the author's name, year of publication, which library it was in, the address, the day of the year, was I sober when I read it

As a matter of fact, I met a Lutheran minister yesterday who was on a tour of the Legislative Building where I work. We talked briefly and I told him I was an Eastern Catholic - and he shot out, "Ah, you know what Luther said about the Eastern Church, do you?" I said, "Yes, I vagely recall something about a better half . . ." Then I asked him if he knew about the Byzantine Forum . . .

In fact, he told me that Luther is the source for the phrase in common parlance, "My better half."

That's what he said.

I do know that our term "your goose is cooked" comes from the words of the Czech reformer, John Hus, burned at the stake in 1415.

The Emperor wrote to him and said Bohemia was worried for his welfare (the possibility of him being burned for heresy).

Hus (which means "Goose" in the Slavic languages) wrote back and said, "Don't worry, Sire, your goose (Hus) is not cooked yet!"

Believe it . . . or not!

Alex

Alex,

I do not doubt the sincerity of your convictions, but I must say that your comments about calculating indulgences and the deprecating manner in which you view the juridical character of Purgatory is totally alien to my experience as a Catholic.

I have never viewed indulgences in a self-serving manner. I have never looked at indulgences as something that will lessen my suffering; I have always looked at it with an eye towards helping OTHERS with my suffering, as St. Paul himself suffered to make up for what was lacking in Christ's suffering. thus I never felt compelled to neurotically calculate how much of it I had to do. If only perhaps you had such a spiritual outlook. I rejoice in the suffering that joins me more intimately with the sufferings of Christ. The Western theology on suffering is absolutely beautiful and sublime. Does Eastern spirituality have anything comparable? If it does, I do not see how you could appreciate Eastern spirituality more than Western spirituality. If it doesn't, then may I suggest you study Western spirituality more closely; I'm certain it is a lot deeper than you might have experienced.

As far as the juridical nature of Purgatory is concerned: I certainly do not intend to judge you, Alex. But from my experience in social service with "at risk" youth, those who find something to complain about when it comes to being punished are those very same ones who do not have a sense of morality. I say this very loosely, and I don't mean to propose the image my analogy portrays (i.e., that you are immoral) . All I am saying is that as a sinner, I have absolutely no right to judge the punishment. But to get to the nitty gritty, the image of Purgatory as "juridical" finds poignant justification in the parable of the unforgiving servant. Perhaps it is my Protestant background, but I find no grounds for complaint against the Word of God. The fact that it is found in Scripture gives me a profound peace which I imagine is comparable to the peace you found in discovering a teaching that does not present Purgatory as "juridical."

In Christ always