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Dec 29th, 2019
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Originally posted by Mikey Stilts:
Whether a place called Purgatory or the Toll Houses of Orthodoxy, or anything else that has been "theologized" over the past 2000 years, it doesn't really matter. Just a technicality ... the Toll House doctrine was challenged by the Orthodox as being Gnostic.
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Purgatory is a Latin doctrine that expresses a Latin religious view that has no place in the East. This is where you're simply wrong. The East does believe in Purgatory, and has to, in order to consider itself Catholic. This is not to say that they have to do so within a Latin framework. I know that. Do you believe that I, as an Eastern Catholic, must profess that we inherit a personal stain of guilt from Adam's original sin? I don't think Latin theology has ever said that one inherits Adam's "guilt," strictly speaking. Even the old Catechisms make it clear that OriginalSin was a personal fault only for Adam and Eve, not for their desencdants. For us, it's just a deprivation of sanctifying grace; if I recall correctly, Saint Thomas Aquinas taught that Original Sin was not a "sin," trictly speaking. I simply ask you not to make the mistake of thinking that we, as a sui juris Church, must profess the Latin perspective on things, which is what you are baldy implying, especially regarding Purgatory. I never said such a thing. In fact, I've gone out of my way to say several times that the East does not have to accept the theological speculations of Latin theologians on this and other issues. They must accept, however, the defined "meat" of the doctrine. What we must believe is that prayer is beneficial for those who have died in Christ. As you stated earlier, the rest is speculation. Whether a place called Purgatory or the Toll Houses of Orthodoxy, or anything else that has been "theologized" over the past 2000 years, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that our prayers can help our departed brothers and sisters achieve a more perfect union with God. Isn't that what I've been saying? I would suggest that you not patronize us with vulgar language and an attitude that I last found in a SSPX member who told me I was going to Hell because I don't kneel to receive communion. The comparison to a Levebvrist can mean nothing more than an insult. I haven't said anything remotely like that to anyone!
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Originally posted by PaxTecvm:
Show me where your bishop contradicts the clear teaching of the Catholic Catechism; then we'll talk. PaxT, He doesn't. That is why Purgatory and the Filioque are not taught. Period.
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And ditto for the Immaculate Conception.
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I'll talk again with you, J Thur, when you stop talking out of your rear and stop contradicting infallible Catholic teaching, as defined by several Ecumenical Councils and taught authoritatively, to the whole Catholic Church, in the Catholic Catechism.
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PaxT,
I am sure your continued questions will eventually open your eyes to the larger riches of Catholic Christianity. The beginning of any eye-opening journey is always rough at first, especially when you have been convinced otherwise for so long. God bless you.
Joe
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Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow,Meow meow meow meow . . .
:rolleyes:
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Slava Isusu Christu!
PaxTecvm,
I apologize and humbly ask for your forgiveness if anything I said was insulting. Once again, my passion got the hold of me.
I do, however, still take issue with your assertion that we must believe in Purgatory to be "fully Catholic". We simply must believe that prayer for the dead is efficacious. That's it. If you can't accept that, it's your problem, not ours.
And your treatment of our own Cantor Joe, particularly your last comment regarding his posterior, is nothing short of insulting itself.
In Christ,
mikey.
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Originally posted by Mikey Stilts:
And your treatment of our own Cantor Joe, particularly your last comment regarding his posterior, is nothing short of insulting itself.
And that's the cat's meow. :p
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We simply must believe that prayer for the dead is efficacious. Dude, that's what the doctrine of Purgatory is.
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Originally posted by PaxTecvm: We simply must believe that prayer for the dead is efficacious. Not so. At one time the Latins taught that it was a place. Christians always prayed for the dead long before Medieval speculation got a hold of it and changed purgatory from a verb to a noun and then back to a verb. We try to avoid speculative journies. Cantor Joe Thur
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I think there's going to be a special place in Purgatory for people who get into flame wars on the Internet. Should be fun! 
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Orthodox Catholic Toddler Member
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Finally!
An exciting thread.
This one went into three pages in a matter of hours!
Honey! Make some popcorn!!
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Luther made that statement about the Eastern Churches during a debate with Roman theologians - it is fairly well documented, at least I've always seen it come up in commentaries on his life, including Catholic ones.
Alex Do you have a specific citation for this? A Web search only yields an article you wrote: http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/luther.htm --Tim Cuprisin
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Unfortunately, it was the USCCB bishops who pounced on traditionalist Latin Catholic Mel Gibson ... only later to apologize and returnn stolen property. Really? Did the "bishops" pounce? Was there an apology or an expression of regret over the contentious atmosphere that had developed? Was property stolen? Such charges have been made here by you and others before. I would like to ask if you or anyone else would like to present the true story.
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