www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News New York sued over 'gay' high school

Dear All,

Since I read the statistics on suicide among gay teens and youth, I have been changed. Some adults don't seem to understand that many of our young harass others simply because they are gay. Prejudice against gay people does exist. It results sometimes in quite brutal actions. It contributes to that suicide rate.

A common term for gay is faggot. It is a common term used to belittle anyone, even if the anyone in question is not gay. From talking to fellow teachers and colleagues in middle and high schools from school disticts across the country, it seems that the use of the term is pandemic. It is not an uncommon term of derision.

Of course, I think that many of us have heard other adults use it, too. I don't remember even one instance where it was used except in a derogatory way, even among adults in schools.

The prejudice appears to be quite extensive. If this is true, neither home nor school appear to be successfully addressing the issue. If building a school for students who are gay and for other students who will go to school openly with gay students will enable some of our children to be safer and to survive better, I'm for it.

We've mobilized our society to address other forms of prejudice before. If we cannot address this form of prejudice as it exists in the school, I don't think that it is inappropriate to find a safer environment for gay students. After all, they are not only the target of the prejudice; derogatory terms for them are regularly applied to include others who are seen as different in some way.

Since the school will be open to all students, not only gay students, I'll look forward with interest to read the statistics indicating that students who are not gay choose go to this school for the education even if it's known that the student body has sizeable proportion of gay and lesbian students.

If it turns out that there is a sizeable segment of non gay students who choose to go there, I think that it might be possible to say that we have come farther than I think we have.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that prejudice against Catholics is not the only acceptable prejudice.

Steve

I want to apologize if my statements seem to be prejudice. I am not! Through our lives we have had many dear friends who were "gay". And, all of your points are well taken. Even one hair harmed on a childs head is one too many.

It is good that they will have a safe and productive environment for learning. But the whole thing seems to me anyway, it still boils down to preferential treatment and the furthering of an agenda. The other thing that strikes me about it, is so many are trying to mainstream and they are withdrawing. I do hope there are many children, both gay and straight, who will take advantage of the education available to them.

Inawe,

First, a "faggot" originated from the rationing of cigarettes during the Civil War. They cut the smoke into two. Such 'halves' weren't a full smoke, hence its use to refer to gay men who were perceived as half men, not a full smoke.

Second, even if we successfully rid of all discrimination and bullying, will that justify homosexuality as a lifestyle? 90 to 95% of suicides are with folks who have a history of mental illness. Over 30,000+ youngsters (ages 15 to 24) kill themselves every year in the U.S.

Homosexuals are six times as likely to commit suicide, but not due to "outside pressure." Even NARTH (National Association for Research and Therapy of Hoomosexuality) states this in an article entitled, "Homosexuality and Mental Health Problems," by N.E. Whitehead, Ph.D.:

"... Saghir and Robins (1978) examined reasons for suicide attempts among homosexuals and found that if the reasons for the attempt were connected with homosexuality, about 2/3 were due to breakups of relationships --not outside pressures from society.

Similarly, Bell and Weinberg (1981) also found the major reason for suicide attempts was the breakup of relationships. In second place, they said, was the inability to accept oneself. Since homosexuals have greater numbers of partners and breakups, compared with heterosexuals, and since longterm gay male relationships are rarely monagamous, it is hardly surprising if suicide attempts are proportionally greater. The median number of partners for homosexuals is four times higher than for heterosexuals (Whitehead and Whitehead 1999, calculated from Laumann et al 1994)."

Their entire text can be read at:

http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html

It is unfortunate when any life is taken. We should pray for them.

Joe

Thanks for the Internet reference. I read through the article, including the bibliography. (Note: The Riess reference contains an error: the editor is MaRmor, J not MaCmor. Scholarship just ain't as rigorous as it used to be.)

I'm not sure about two major points. First, the bibliography cited as basis for the research is severely constrained - the authors cited are primarily those who have a problem with the whole issue of homosexuality. This sends up warning signals to me that the paper is not an accurate appraisal, but rather a "saw" meant to defend one position. There are many excellent papers by R. Spitzer (former chairman of the APA's committee on the Diagnostic Manual), Weinberg, Marmor himself, as well as others that are not represented in the foundational texts.

Secondly, the psychologist author does not address the root point, which is: what constitutes mental illness and therefore is in need of treatment? The current definition includes two components: (1) any situation which causes dysfunction in an individual in his/her ability to live; (2) any situation which causes personal dysfunction in a person, related to the person's ability to interact in society.

At the time of the "debates", the critical issue was the definition of mental illness. Dr. John Fryer, now deceased, testified before the committee on the manual (behind a screen to hide his identity), that his ability to function was not dysfunctional to him, but that presuppositions "on the part of society" about his ability were the source of any dysfunction that he might have.

The psychoanalytic camp, with its lists of neuroses and psychoses, suggested that anyone who displayed behavior that was outside the realm of what they considered "normal" was suffering from mental illness. This included not only the hyper-clean, but also the hyper-religious, the hyper-organized, etc. What became clear was that the 'sick/non-sick' line was drawn independently of the person involved. And this caused major problems from a theory point of view.

Ultimately, as the vote made clear, the definition of what was "illness" followed the dysfunction paradigm, which by its nature included the individual and not just a list of symptomatology. According to the psychoanalytic framework, a person could be declared a 'religious neurotic' if the person exceeded what the treating physician thought was 'normal'. Under the 'new' system, the person could go to church as much as he/she wanted, and as long as it did not interfere with the person's individual ability to function, or with the person's ability to interact in society, then it was not a diagnosable mental illness.

Thus, appeals to a theory that homosexuality in and of itself is "illness" just doesn't hold water outside the psychoanalytic framework, which holds to its 'lists' of aberrant behavior. (Socarides, the standard-bearer of the 'homosexuality is illness' contingent of psychiatry, was trained as a psychoanalyst, and served as President of the American PsychoAnalytic Association.)

While this is certainly interesting history and an intellectually stimulating discussion of mental illness, the root question remains: how do we protect kids in school from bullying? Homosexually oriented kids? Very religious kids? Arts-Oriented kids? The Non-Jock boys? The sports-playing girls? The kids who have weight problems? The kids with severe acne? The 'geeks'?

So, I don't have a problem with this school as long as it gives a good education, and it provides the sense of safety that every kid should enjoy.

Blessings!

(This made me think of the old line about prayer in the public schools: As long as there are math tests, there WILL be prayer in the public schools. Eeeeuwww. Math. Yuk.)

Dear Joe,

Thank you for your posting above. I echo Dr. John's gratitude for the references.

I also want to thank you for sharing what you found about the origin of the word fag. It is interesting that it is used to express the perception that gay men were not whole men, but half men. It is easier to understand the negativity of its use as a nick name for gays. It makes even clearer the potential for damage to young people to have such a term used about them whether gay or not.

I am not sure about the reasoning for posting this:

"Second, even if we successfully rid of all discrimination and bullying, will that justify homosexuality as a lifestyle? 90 to 95% of suicides are with folks who have a history of mental illness. Over 30,000+ youngsters (ages 15 to 24) kill themselves every year in the U.S.

Homosexuals are six times as likely to commit suicide, but not due to "outside pressure." Even NARTH (National Association for Research and Therapy of Hoomosexuality) states this in an article entitled, "Homosexuality and Mental Health Problems," by N.E. Whitehead, Ph.D.:

"... Saghir and Robins (1978) examined reasons for suicide attempts among homosexuals and found that if the reasons for the attempt were connected with homosexuality, about 2/3 were due to breakups of relationships --not outside pressures from society."

Similarly, Bell and Weinberg (1981) also found the major reason for suicide attempts was the breakup of relationships. In second place, they said, was the inability to accept oneself. Since homosexuals have greater numbers of partners and breakups, compared with heterosexuals, and since longterm gay male relationships are rarely monagamous, it is hardly surprising if suicide attempts are proportionally greater. The median number of partners for homosexuals is four times higher than for heterosexuals (Whitehead and Whitehead 1999, calculated from Laumann et al 1994)."

in the context of a response to my posting. I was speaking specifically about teens and youth, not the general population.

One of the studies that Johan was kind enough to link us to is:

Source: Ministry of Health for New Zealand http://www.newhealth.govt.nz/toolkits/suicide/background_2.htm

It is one of the most interesting in that it is part of a tool kit for dealing with the issue of suicide. The last study referred to is of particular interest in that in it the issue of suicide is not linked to sexual promiscuity among gay teens in the study. They did not have any contact. The tool kit says:

"Sexual orientation

Being gay, lesbian or bisexual has been linked with a higher risk of suicidal behaviour. It is thought that this higher risk is due to the impact of negative societal attitudes towards homosexuality and bisexuality.

Longitudinal research from the Christchurch Health and Development Study has found that gay, lesbian and bisexual young people were more likely to have a range of mental disorders. Amongst this group, suicidal thinking was 5.4 times more likely and suicide attempt 6.2 times more likely than amongst heterosexual young people (Fergusson, Horwood and Beautrais 1999).

Australian research has found that most suicide attempts amongst gay males occurred after the person had self-identified as gay, but before having a same-sex experience and before publicly identifying themselves as gay (Nicholas and Howard 1999)." (Bold added by Steve)

The connection between ideation and self identification and suicides or attempts is clear. It appears that many of the studies referred to above deal with active persons presumably adult, if I read the reference correctly.

Again, thanks for the links.

I find it interesting that this society, NARTH, did not exist till the APA removed homosexuality per se as a mental illness from its lists. That seems to me to taint the work of the group in question. They formed in opposition to the action of the APA because they believed (I use this word purposefully)was in error to do so.

They themselves note that neither APA nor their group operate in a scientific vacuum. People can legitimately, I think, question motives for analysis of studies done by both sides.

Since we're talking about young people who might not even be active and the evidence is arguable, I prefer to err on the side of caution and on this basis, I find no reason to change my support for the kind of school that is proposed.

Thanks again for your posting and for hearing me out.

Steve

Steve, thanks for the New Zealand and Australian references. It seems that this issue of teen self-identity and its potential link to suicide and suicide attempts is not just a "local problem" here in the U.S.

I am truly convinced that being a good teacher is a vocation, a real calling. The teacher is one who not only masters the subject matter (and has the gift to actually TEACH it), but also has this basic benevolent spirit towards the learners, especially those who are young. We get distressed when one of our learners is in pain or in trouble.

It's the "Dead Poets Society" and "Goodbye Mr. Chips" all over again...and again...and again.. and....

Blessings!

Dear Dr. John,

Actually I just reposted the links. Johan, in his kindness, provided them originally. They provide reason to pause and consider the fact that the gay men who were studied in the study from Australia had not engaged in homosexual activity.

I agree with what you have to say about teachers. It is good to see that posted. Your basically benevolent spirit toward learners is quite evident here.

Sadly, though, there are some teachers who, like some of their students, speak and behave in ways that show their prejudice in regard to homosexuals and others who are different. I suspect that this, too, is a factor in the decision to open this school.

By the way, the school was opened quite some time ago. It is not a new school. It came to the headlines that led to this thread because of plans to expand it.

If the Australian study describes reality adequately, those gay men most likely to make suicide attempts are those who have not engaged in homosexual activity. I think that there are some of our students in their number, because a couple of years ago, I read that every half hour a gay teen attempts to committ suicide.

Like I said, that knowledge changed me. As you point out, our responsibility for all of our young goes on and on and on....

Thanks again,

Steve


Dr John posted:

"Steve, thanks for the New Zealand and Australian references. It seems that this issue of teen self-identity and its potential link to suicide and suicide attempts is not just a "local problem" here in the U.S.

I am truly convinced that being a good teacher is a vocation, a real calling. The teacher is one who not only masters the subject matter (and has the gift to actually TEACH it), but also has this basic benevolent spirit towards the learners, especially those who are young. We get distressed when one of our learners is in pain or in trouble.

It's the "Dead Poets Society" and "Goodbye Mr. Chips" all over again...and again...and again.. and....

Blessings! "

Dear All:

I'm a little rusty on my Consitutional Law, but I seem to recall that sexual preference is not recognized as one which invokes a "compelling state interest" standard of review.

Rather, any actual or precieved disparate treatment of, in this case, heterosexuals would, if I recall correctly, be subject to a "legitimate state interest" question. Given the stats cited above of abuse by other kids, one would guess that the courts will let this stand.

However, I do have a question or three.

What if a young person is unsure? Do they go and risk being "pegged" even though they later determine that they're not?

Better yet, could not an argument be made that such an environment might encourage someone who's "on the fence" to "experiment."

Finally, could not abuse happen outside of school anyway. Kids from the "straight" school down the street see kids walk out of the "gay" school and see a target?

Just wondering out loud...

kl

Dr. John,

Can you please clarify this statement? Are you addressing those who take issue with homosexual activity or just those with homosexual tendencies? One can discuss the issue fairly while at the same time believing that homosexual tendencies are intrinsically disordered and that homosexual sexual activity is always immoral. To suggest that this group of individuals cannot fairly enter into the discussion is to exclude all believing Catholics and Orthodox from the discussion. I hope that is not what you meant to say.

It is horrible that anyone would take his or her own life. A Christian pastoral response must be tailored to the immediate situation but it can never involve giving a blessing to behavior that is immoral.

Admin

Dear Administrator

A GREAT BIG THANKS!

Steve,

One of the big losses from having homosexuality removed from the APA list is a lessened chance of getting financial support for illnesses that this pool of individuals may get. Since homosexuality is now considered normal, its a different situation.

Joe

The most detrimental effect of a High School for homosexual students, is the reaffirming these kids (most of whom will be minors) will receive concerning there sexual identity.

There are schools in virtually every big city in America where some kids won't even use the bathroom for fear of being assaulted by gang members, yet it seems that homosexual students (who must be pretty open about there sexual identity) are the ones entitled to greater consideration.

Personally I think public education has been a Sacred Cow in our society for too long. The largest pct by far, of my property taxes goes for public education, and if another school is built in my town in the future, I'am going to be faced with some very difficult decisions. The most intelligent children in America are those that are home schooled, followed by those that come out of parochial and private schools. The public school system on the other hand is more concerned with a curriculum that indoctrinates children to be atheistic socialists, with no morals. It's amazing to hear people editorialize about how our society would collapse if our public schools ever closed. I'am no rocket scientist, but my God ! my parents (who were poor) taught me to read, write and do simple arithmetic long before I started the 1st grade. Did I learn anything at all in the public school system ? Yes ! I learned to swear, smoke, experiment with drugs, look at pornography, and hang around with gang members.

Dear Lawrence:

While I generally agree with what you say, I must respectfully take issue with your blanket statement that the most intelligent people come out of private and parochial schools.

I'm sure you meant no offense and none is taken. Some of us around here are the product of public education from primary school all the way through post graduate work and we seem to have come out OK.

Yours,

kl

"homosexual students (who must be pretty open about there sexual identity)" - a significant percentage - possibly even a majority - of the students who are abused as homosexuals are not homosexual at all. To my way of thinking, abusing a child is reprehensible regardless of his/her orientation, but those who seem to think otherwise might consider that it is quite often the "wrong" children who are targeted. Incognitus

Lawrence wrote"...swear, smoke, experiment with drugs..." with kids from public school.

When I was in college, the kids that used to "swear, smoke, experiment with drugs" were the kids from Parochial school.

They were also the ones who NEVER showed up for Mass on Sunday either at the Neumann Center or the Roman Catholic church in town either...

Amazing isn't it...

mark