|
0 members (),
212
guests, and
24
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,219
Posts415,299
Members5,881
| |
Most Online3,380 Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2
Junior Member
|
OP
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2 |
Dear friends, I have discussion in the newsgroup fido7.ru.pravoslavie.talk (Russian Orthodox Church, Moscow patr.) Can we comment next situation? http://www.oca.org/pages/news/news.asp?ID=426 ----- CUT ----- In March 2003, Metropolitan Herman received a letter from Archimandrite Gregory [Wendt], the monastery�s abbot, requesting that the brotherhood be received into the Orthodox Church and that the monastery be accepted as a monastery of the Orthodox Church in America. For a number of years, the monastery was within the Ruthenian Byzantine Rite Catholic Eparchy of Passaic, NJ. ----- CUT ----- Igors
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21 |
Vozdrastviye, Igor!
What in particular would you like to discuss about that issue?
Aleksandr Romanovych Romanchukevych Doktor Sotsiologichnykh Nauk
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968 |
Welcome, Igors, to the Forum! To answer your question: I don't know. It isn't the first time this has happened and I can think of one Orthodox monastery here in the US that has become Eastern Catholic. There are a variety of reasons why people go from one faith to another. Quite often these sort of things are never publically discussed. One monastery that has is New Skete monastery in Cambridge, New York. It was originally a Catholic monastery and later was received into the OCA. They have published the reasons for their move to Orthodoxy in their best-selling book In the Spirit of Happiness, pp.258-260: During the ferment of the Second Vatican Council in the early 1960s,this group of [Byzantine Rite] Franciscans extensively discussed how best toimplement the directives of the council in their own life and work. Of first importance to most of its members was the necessity of bringing their own practice as a community into harmony with the authentic principles of Eastern Christian tradition. This meant once and for all laying aside the specifically Latin Rite characteristics of the community, in its liturgy, theology, prayer, and rule of life, which it had inherited from the Franciscan order.
The higher authorities in the order refused to sanction the vision of the majority of the members of the Byzantine Franciscan community. At this point Father Laurence and those who went with him asked for and received official canonical permission to leave the Franciscan order for good, with a view to starting a new foundation. The purpose of this new monastic community would be to realize as much as possible the spirit and ideals of Eastern Christian monastic tradition in and for the contemporary American setting. So it was that in May 1966, New Skete was established.
Among the many difficulties involved in beginning this new community was the issue of canonical recognition by the church. By reason of similarity of rite, New Skete should have been recognized by one of the Eastern Rite Catholic bishops. Because of political problems, these were unwilling to do this, and so Rome placed us under the jurisdiction of the nearby Latin Rite bishop of Albany.
During the next ten years it became clear to us where we were actually finding the sources and inspiration of our way of life. Our research, discussion, teaching, reflection, and practice showed that our roots lie primarily in the spirit and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Church, particularly as they were expressed in its first millennium of existence as well as in the best of its theology and practice today. The real rationale of our own religious life, in other words, had not so much to do with allegiance to Rome as it did with our desire to pursue the authentic life and spirit of the Christian East. It was not that we had come to see Rome as somehow wrong or the Orthodox Church as exclusively the true church. This was not our thinking on the matter at all. It was more a question of finding our rightful place in the universal Church, of participating in the living tradition and human community of the churches of the East that we had chosen to serve from the beginning.
Finally in 1979 New Skete was received into the Orthodox Church of America, one of the many Orthodox jurisdictions in this country today. We believe now as then that we can best serve God and the whole of the church and Christianity by calling ourselves officially what we believe we are in our praying, thinking, and living: Orthodox Catholic monks. Later on page 306 the monks write: Most of our members were born and raised in one of the Western Christian traditions, and yet somehow we were attracted to the traditions of Eastern Christianity. Because of this, we have always been especially sensitive to the divisions among the churches and in our own small way tried to be a bridge of understanding between all peoples. We are interested in and respectful of believers and unbelievers alike and welcome them into our home. We try live our own lives simply and straightforwardly. And we are committed to doing whatever we can toward healing the centuries-old schism between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Father John Meyendorff, a well-known theologian and friend of ours, once said to us, "You should properly be called western eastern Christians!" As a matter of fact, we have come to see that a truly Catholic Christianity is necessarily ecumenical, embracing differences while trying to be open to the entire human race. My own spiritual journey has been in a different direction but I fully understand the frustration felt by those who want to live the full range of authentic Eastern tradition and yet find themselves in situations where the call to restore authentic Eastern tradition and de-latinize is still not being implemented for "pastoral" reasons. I think we' ve come a long way since the era right after Vatican II and some great strides are happening in our Churches. I think it is possible to be a voice for authentic Eastern renewal in our Churches today and to be taken seriously. But much remains to be done. There are still those in our Churches who say: "If you feel the need to be Orthodox instead of Eastern Catholic then go right ahead." And I ask: "Why is there a difference in our spirituality? In our liturgical life? In our theological emphases?" Can we live the fullness of our tradition as part of the world-wide communion of Catholic Churches? Vatican II says we can. Pope John Paul has said we can. Nearly 100 years ago, even Pope St Pius X spoke of Eastern Catholics as living their faith "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" ("no more, no less, no different"). Maybe instead of telling people who feel drawn to practicing the full range of authentic Eastern tradition "go join the Orthodox Church," we should say "don't go...stay with us and help us renew our Church to restore its authentic traditions." David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 60
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 60 |
DTBrown, I understand that New Skete is doing things "outside" of the Orthodox Church. I believe I read on a thread topic here New Skete's Reformed Vespers about this very subject. I wonder why in your post they said, "The real rationale of our own religious life, in other words, had not so much to do with allegiance to Rome as it did with our desire to pursue the authentic life and spirit of the Christian East." But yet they do not seem to follow their authentic eastern traditions? I have heard that one reason religious people leave different orders is because of tolerance toward homosexual lifestyle or agendas like women priest. I am not say that New Skete left the church because the OCA was more tolerate toward these things but I am saying that some monks/nuns leave orders because of this issue. I have read on another thread that OCA seems to be more tolerate toward homosexuals. Have you heard of this or is this just a rumor?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21 |
Dear Catholic Man,
No, the notion that the OCA is somehow tolerant toward homosexual behaviour - that is simply a calumny against the OCA!
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21 |
Dear Friends, Well, we Ukies have our "perekinchyky" (those who change over) too! Recently, we had some Studites from Ukraine join the ROCOR. When things like this happen, it is usually because there are those who feel that their Eastern Catholic Church, in this case, the UGCC, isn't "Eastern enough" for them. They themselves may be in a monastery or parish that is very Eastern. But perhaps they're tired of fighting with bishops, priests and laity about how Eastern (or "Russified") they are or aren't. Perhaps they wish to be in a Church where being as Eastern as they are is the norm, rather than the exception. Perhaps they have also come to the conclusion that to be fully "Orthodox" means to be out of the Eastern Catholic relationship with Rome. Today, among the Ukrainians, when a Ukrainian Catholic priest chooses to become Orthodox - it's really not that big a deal any more. One of our priests at my parish of St Nicholas became Orthodox. The reactions in the parish were varied - the other priests and the upper echelons of the parish bemoaned his leaving as a kind of "rejection" of us. Others welcomed his decision and said, "We understand . . .this is a financial move up for you!" And neither was the case with him. He genuinely came to believe that the Orthodox Church is the true Church and that the RC Church is not. That was it, period. He also later got angry with me for writing on an Orthodox site - and complained to the other administrators that I wasn't Orthodox etc. But we worked our differences out! Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 441
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 441 |
Couple of notes here:
New Skete's "reasonings" given in their book, "The Spirit of Happiness" are seen by many, if not most, Orthodox observers, to be unclear, if not completely conflicted. Their presence within Orthodoxy has been a cause of no small amount of criticism for the OCA, and it should also be known that many predict that they will leave Orthodoxy, more sooner than later. Only time will tell.
Regarding the OCA "acceptance" of homosexual lifestyles, thank you Alex, for setting the record straight. I'm also thinking of the recent Russian Orthodox decision to raze a church which was the unfortunate host of the "marriage" of two homosexuals by a now disciplined, if not defrocked, priest. I think that sums it up nicely. If I were a bishop, my first duty would be to make friends with the local John Deere dealer...
Priest Thomas
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21 |
Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas! Don't mention it! We Orthodox Christians have to stick together here amongst so many Catholics!! (Most of them are fine, but some of them just haven't gotten the 'crusader' out of their system yet . . .  ) Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373 |
Since the late 1940's, a Byzantine Franciscan community was created to specifically help Ruthenian and Ukrainian Byzantine Catholics. It was locatd in Eastern Penna., in Sybertsville. Over the years their mission was to help Byzantine Catholic restore their traditions and also help promote unity of all (Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics and Orthodox). Before the fall of communism, they were also preparing to serve the restored Byzantine Catholic Churches of Eastern Europe. When communism did fall, they did send some of their priest/monks to Eastern Europe. Although their community is now very small, two of thes Byzantine Franciscans have been elevated to the rank of bishop. Met. Basil Schott and Bp. William Skurla. Byzantine Catholics should be thankful for the work of these monks who truly spent their monstic life helping many Byzantine Catholic parishes thoghout the U.S. May God continue to bless their work!
Ung-Certez
Ung-Certez
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21 |
Dear Ung-Certez, So those who became Orthodox - I guess when it came to being Eastern, they didn't know when to stop? Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968 |
Fr Thomas wrote: New Skete's "reasonings" given in their book, "The Spirit of Happiness" are seen by many, if not most, Orthodox observers, to be unclear, if not completely conflicted. Their presence within Orthodoxy has been a cause of no small amount of criticism for the OCA, and it should also be known that many predict that they will leave Orthodoxy, more sooner than later. Only time will tell. Father, bless! I don't know very much about New Skete. I do admire what they said about their wish to see the schism between our two Churches healed. Their desire to be an ecumenical "bridge of understanding" is a good thing, IMO, and I'd hate to see that influence wane in the OCA. David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,240
Member
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,240 |
Regarding New Skete's modifications of liturgical forms, in almost all cases they are able to point to historical precedent for what they do. Nonetheless, just because something was once done does not automatically mean that it is fine to do it today.
For example:
We once had married bishops with wives and young children. These bishops were the ones who seemed most ready to make unacceptable compromises on matters of critical doctrine. We don't have married bishops very often anymore, although allowed canonically.
Ther church once had male and female, lay non-serving and clergy all process together at the Great Entrance. Nowadays, as the procession begins and ends in the sanctuary, we tend to just have male servers and clergy in that procession. It's only in more liberal parishes and dioceses(like mine), where feminism is taking root, that we find girls in the procession of the Great Entrance.
At one point, New Skete's abbot was even suspended. New Skete has gone out of their way in the past to be extremely "different" while being perhaps technically correct. Unfortunately, when being different causes your brother to fall, its time to reconsider.
As far as toleration of homosexuality, a completely different subject, I have enough personal witness to say that it certainly has all appearances of being true in several cases, but certainly not policy.
With love in Christ, Andrew
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 60
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 60 |
Thank you everyone for clearing that up for me.
Sometimes you read stuff off the internet and are not sure whether or not it is true. I feel like I can trust this forum to tell the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21 |
Dear Catholic Man, Thank you - you can count on me for the truth! I'm not always sure about some others, mind you . . . God bless! Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,505
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,505 |
Dear Brethren, I have been to New Skete on several occasions and it is true that they have run fowl on some orthdox jurisdictions. I do not know the full implications. However I must say that I agree with the post of David Ignatius. Byzantine Catholics need to remain in communiong with the Apostolic see of Rome while at the same time restoring their eastern traditons and insist on their cannonical rights. Perhaps the ones to really convince are your Eparchs who seem to me to be dragging their feet. Then maybe you will become what you truly are, Orthodox in Communion with the Apostolic See of Rome and also restore communion with the other Apostolic Sees. May God hasten that day.
Stephanos I
|
|
|
|
|