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Matthew, I have to agree with you. Every time the Latins have a council, they declare it ecumenical - they usually are anything but. I know many devout Latin Catholics who don't think much of that council, either. Granted, there are some moments of incredible wisdom and beauty in the Vatican II documents. Other times, it seems just like confused, touchy-feely, 1960s mush. The Council was a product of its age. But the biggest problem has always been in the implementation of the Council documents. That's where things have really gotten crazy. What sounds good in theory doesn't always work in application. I know some who quote Vatican II documents like they are scripture sent down from Heaven. They are not. I don't mean to dismiss the Council as irrelevant, but to suggest reading the documents between the lines, and at times, with a grain of salt.

Islam has always believed and taught that people are either with them in peace or of another religion with whom they are at war. There is no middle road. That would not be so bad if Islam limited itself to words but they do not. Maybe they will grow up as most other religions have, but let's face it, 1400 years is a long time and the religion doesn't seem to be getting any more mature in its outlook.

When clerics are allowed to teach whatever they wish and are encouraged to teach hegemony why should anyone expect Islam to be peaceful?

I've thought long and hard about Pat Buchanan's critique of the right as regards Iraq. It is a compelling argument. Why Iraq and not Iran or better Saudi Arabia or even Sudan? But if we are to survive the onslaught of offensive Islam then Iraq is as good a theatre as any.

Dan L

Dan, isn't it interesting how so-called, friendly Islamic regimes have bankrolled Islamic terrorist - excuse me, Islamic charitable - organizations for years?

I want to believe that someday the Sufis will rise up and take over Islam. I want to believe that somehow or other clerics will be held accountable for what they say. I want to believe that Islamic governments will stop funding terrorists.

Libya, Afghanistan, and now Iraq make me think that these things are possible, but not without coersion. Will it stick once the coersion stops?
We have no evidence.

Dan L

Yes, and wouldn't it be wonderful if the United States stopped funding terrorist governments around the world? And let's not forget that much of modern Islamic terrorism was funded and trained by the CIA in Afghanistan...
I knew a guy in DC in the 80s who disappeared for months at a time and came back with tales of these wonderful holy warriors in Afghanistan that he was training and arming. He is not to be blamed much, his parents were refugees from communism in Lithuania, but I remember thinking at the time that this may not be such a great idea. I'd love to run into Andy now to see what he thinks of the mess he helped create.

http://www.goarch.org/en/special/usvisit2002/holiness/speeches/bahrain.asp

Since when? If that were true, the Patriarch would not have the difficulties he has with the Turkish government. I think he is being a little overly diplomatic here.

An interesting link from the Orthodox Bishop whose jurisdiction includes the area where the Russian children were held hostage.

unity [zenit.org]

Dear Alice,

There is a difference between an appeasement letter from the Ecumenical Patriarch who lives under the heel of Islam and a document produced from a Vatican Council.

If you think that the Ecumenical Patriarch is going to publicly express his utter dismay with Islam in the Emirate of Bahrain, you are wrong. Nor should you expect him or any reasonable minded person to pour gas and light matches in a massive fireworks and toxic chemical depot that he is locked in with no escape route in sight, certainly that would be a reckless action which would also effect those that live around the burning fireworks depot. It is wiser to compliment the fireworks depot folks knowing that that historically have no problem with blowing you and your loved ones up.

That's right, ByzanTN they are so tolerant towards other religions that the Bishop's in Constantinople have to dress in suits like businessmen and are most welcome to open up Churches and theological schools anytime anywhere. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make peace with your enemies and talking with other people who are also made in the image and likeness of God. There is something wrong with accepting belief systems or those that hold heretical views into the fold for political or worldly reasons. I can tell you as a matter of fact, this has happened in reference to Vatican II in the Roman Catholic Church in recent times and as Orthodox Christians we have nothing to do with it.

Here is the problem or question Alice, did Christ ever kiss the devil or tell us to love him or dance to a beautiful sounding love song with him so we feel better about the world and society in which we might find ourselves?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

By the way, I forgot to mention what they would do to you in Turkey if you ever said a Christian prayer in public. I can assure you that thier notion of a loving response and ours would be quite different.

byzanTN, thanks for that article. Bishop Feofan says some very touching things.

Dear Matthew,

AGAIN, dear brother, I am NOT arguing with you. :rolleyes:

I just saw an analogy in trying to appease the enemy for the sake of world peace. That is how *I* see the sometimes curious actions of the two holy Patriarchs (The EP and the Pope) which I respect.

NO argument about Islam there....

I am starting to feel that any opinion I might have is extremely unwelcome, NOT by my Catholic hosts who have always been polite, respectful and charitable to me, but, sadly, by my supposed Orthodox brethren...

Since I am going to receive the Holy Mysteries tomorrow morning for the feast of the Nativity of our Most Holy Mother of God, and since, it is also my birthday today, I really don't need to feel like this...

So, I think that I will refrain from posting on most threads for a while in order to appease those who don't seem to not like any thing I have to say...EVEN when I agree with them!

With love in Christ,
Humbly,
Alice

Good advice Alice, LOL!
BTW I THINK I just heard on FOXNews that the Russians are threatening to nuke the terrorists!

Peace- and have a happy birthday!
Marya

Dear Alice,

Don't make your "supposed Orthodox brethren" your persecutors or less polite, respectful and charitable then your Catholic hosts by misinterpreting our motivation and words.

I've never been called a "supposed Orthodox brethern" in my life, suffice it to say it does not sound very good for the word supposed means (Presumed to be true or real without conclusive evidence.) Some here might take it as a real insult.

It seems like a rather harsh judgement to express particularly in a forum where people are not meeting face to face which effects and limits the fullness of human communication.

I really don't like what you have just said. However that does not mean that I don't like you, I think that your being a bit on the emotional side of things right now. Don't worry about it I'm not going away, and I will try to meet Christ's expections of how an Orthodox Christian should behave, which I most certainly fall short of very often.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

I agree with your assessment. The Muslim countries have basically been Fascist, Communist, and CIA dupes for quite a while. Yet, how does one explain the viciousness of Islam prior to 1935?

Dan L