www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Greek Bishop Brands Turks "Barbarians"

Here's the story from the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3292835.stm

Great way to win friends and influence people. :rolleyes:

Dave

This person has lost his chance of winning the Nobel Peace Prize.
Lauro

I'll admit that the Archbishop's comments might have been significantly softened by ommitting the word "barbarians."

There is no doubt that the arrival of enormous numbers of legal and illegal non-European and non-Christian populations into the EU has caused considerable sociological strain, despite the economic benefits of having inexpensive laborers. The liberal Euro governments have allowed this to occur, not the Church, and so the Archbishop has a right, as archpastor, to criticize a policy (Turkish EU membership) that would literally open a floodgate from next door where 67 million Muslim Turks live (per capita income at $6,500, exactly half of Greece's $13,000). He does have an obligation to address issues that may adversely effect the lives of his flock.

I'm wondering if the permanent outflow from Turkey of skilled professionals to the wealthier EU countries won't also be a net negative for Turkish develiopment, as it has been for Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Poland, Russia, and others.

I'm not against Turkish EU membership, especially as it will benefit poorer Turks in the short term. But there will be long-term costs also.

The rise of anti-immigrant sentiment and violence within the EU has been quite drastic during the past ten years alone. I can remember when I was living in Southern Italy and traveled to Greece during the 1988-1990 time frame, this sentiment and violent response was not to be found in either country.

These sentiments open the way for the Lombardy League (a Northern Italian separatist and anti-immigrant movement, albeit ostensibly peaceful) and numerous other crypto-fascist extremist groups.

The EU would do well to realize that when immigrants of a radically different cultural, ethnic, religious, and racial background suddenly comprise more than 10% of a previously homogeneous country, there is bound to be (and justifiably so) a significant backlash.

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear Andrew:

I'm not sure what you are ultimately saying.

On one hand, you say that Turkish membership in the EU would be good for poor Turks which would, I presume, make them less apt to subscribe to some radical Islamic movements (among other things).

On the other hand, you seem to suggest that Europe is not ready to absorb a wave of non-Christian immigrants and that one possible solution would be to curtail immigration into the EU altogether.

On a more general note, such a public statement by a bishop is, IMHO, inexcusable - on so many levels.

Yours,

hal

I tend to look at EU membership from a sociopolitical and economic view. However, I can also see another aspect. Archbishop Christodulos seems worried about an infiltration of non-Christians into "Christian Europe" or "Orthodox Greece"; this is very close-minded, "us against them" mentality. Why not look at this as an evangelical opportunity to share the Good News with those who won't hear it otherwise?

Calling them "barbarians" and making them feel unwelcome, unwanted and unloved will not show them the love of Christ!

Sometimes one gets all involved in a speech and things are said in the heat of the moment that were not really meant, or they just came out wrong. I hope that this was the case.

Dave

Dear Hal,

I'm sorry if I was writing obtusely.

The EU offers free trade and free movement to all of its members. I think that the free trade portion is great, but the free movement portion will have to be reassessed with the addition of large umpovrished populations (such as those of Turkey and Russia) which could overwhelm the wealthier member states.

Imagine an open border with Mexico.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew

I agree with almost everything you said, especially the part about immigration. In our PC world,say that you're opposed to massive immigration by people of a vastly different culture, and in some quarters you'll be labeled a racist neo-nazi, white supremicist.

Personally I can't fault the Bishop too much, as Turkey has been one of the most anti-Christian countries in the history of the world.

As for the EU, I pray for it's collapse.

Dear Andrew:

No problem, I just didn't want to misunderstand.

That having been said, I think you make a fair point - so long as it's economically based. In other words, if there is a genuine concern about the current EU member nations not being able to absorb and care for waves and waves of Turkish immigrants, that's legitimate.

But, if the EU current membership of the EU closes its borders, so to speak to non-Christians just because there are a few intolerant jerks around, then there's an issue and, in this respect, I echo Dave's sentiments above.

One noted travel writer has said that people going to London are often surpirsed to find out how "un-English" it is - i.e. that it has become a mini British empire of people from the Indian Sub-Continent, Hong Kong, the Carribean, etc. Somehow, the UK has learned to cope.

I'm off the topic, so I will end it there.

Yours,

hal

Dear Lawrence:

I disagree that forbidding the immigration of a vastly different culture automatically makes one a white supremicist neo-Nazi.

In the right situation, it could also make you a member of the Saudi Royal Family.

Yours,

hal

Oh no! Reminds me of a lyric from a song by comedian/musician Stephen Lynch:

If I could be a superhero
I'd be Immigration dude
I�d send all the foreigners back to their homes
For eating up all of our food
And taking our welfare and best jobs to boot
Like landscaping, dishwashing, picking our fruit
I�d pass a lot of laws to get rid of their brood
�Cause I�d be Immigration Dude.



Dave

It would seem to me that we already have a rather porous border with Mexico anyway.

Honestly, we in the US would probably save ourselves a few bucks if we stopped pretending to have a fully-staffed border patrol and simply made sure that those who are crossing are registered and >>gasp<< pay their taxes.

Yours,

hal

Dear Friends,

Archbishop Christodoulos is fiercely nationalistic. He is also a down to earth, friendly, charismatic prelate. He told Greek teenagers to come to Liturgy in their jeans;that it doesn't matter what they are wearing, that they should just feel comfortable to drop in.
He has reached out in many other down to earth ways to Greece's teens...they are largely non-Church going, and very materialistically oriented. They feel that the Church is for their grandparents.

As for His Eminence's feelings about the Turks, you have to understand the long history Greece and Orthodox Christianity has with Turkey. This history is not easily forgotten, and the rights of Orthodox Christians, and Orthodox Christianity in general, in present day Turkey, including even the rights of the Ecumenical Patriarch, are not all that freely granted.

In Christ,
Alice

Well I am really happy to see this comment by the Archbishop of Greece! I think it could have been even more cool if he had attached a complete condemnation of the UE, all kind of integration, false internationalism, etc.

I would say that the Muslims are really different from us members of Apostolic Churches, but I think that having contact with Protestant sects and being under Protestant and secular countries like the heads of the UE is even more dangerous. The enemies o Christ are more powerful in the West than the Muslims!

Nothing good comes with this false integration, I myself come from a country which is suffering the evil of this false internationalism, and the corruption of our society, national identity, etc.

P.S. Archbishop Christodoulos says that he stands with the Pope in the inclusion of mention of Europe's Christian roots in the new EU constitution. Turkey has said that if it is accepted into the EU it will fight this mention fiercely. Whether an Islamic country is secular or religious, it will always be Muslim in mentality...and foremost in that mentality is the desire to convert the world to Islam, and the trampling of Christianity.

Alice