www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Mel Gibson On ETWN Yesterday.

Dear Dr. John,

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree!

She would make a great government employee, especially in "behind the scenes" situations . . .

Alex

Dear David,

Well, I think "Catholic" can be used in a generic sense (you can confer with RayK on this if you like as he seems to be an authority on everything - he was actually in a seminary where he even read Erich Fromm, you know ).

"Catholic" originally and still does mean the Eucharistic model of the Church where the "entire Church is present in the part."

As such, I don't see what union with Rome has to do with this term and it is used by the Orthodox as well.

I understand it to mean any Church, in union with Rome or not, that has kept the basic Apostolic faith, episcopal Orders, Sacraments et al.

Mel Gibson's spiritual culture is very Roman Catholic and not just "Catholic" even though he is not in communion with the "Rome of today" and his group yearns for the "Rome of yesteryear."

I don't see what any of this has to do with Mel's devotion to Christ, do you?

As for schism, there are schismatics and there are schismatics.

Those who left to ordain women etc. tend to be complicit with liberal views that lean more toward the heretical and not just the schismatical.

I think when we refer to a "schismatic Roman Catholic" we think of SSPX'ers and those of that ilk.

King Henry VIII was also a schismatic Roman Catholic who prayed the Rosary throughout his life.

But he wasn't into film-making. Although I can see King Henry giving new meaning to the film-director's oft-repeated "Cut!"

Alex

Hello,

No, of course not.

Just as I don't expect any Orthodox to call the Catholics "Orthodox".

In some circles, there has been a proposal to use "C"atholic to mean "in full communion with Rome", and "c"atholic to mean "professing the apostolic faith in its integrity".

In that sense, I would call the Orthodox "c"atholic. But since this is not a universally accepted standard, I would be very careful to make sure my audience knows what I mean, and the subtle difference between "C"atholic and "c"atholic.

Shalom,
Memo.

Hello,

Yes, it is very convenient to realize that your morality as an actor has suffered from past indiscretions when you are making a movie with a religious theme.

Maybe too convenient.

I'd be sure to check Mr. Gibson's standing regarding all this some 5 movies after "The Passion".

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

Sorry, Friend, but the Orthodox have NEVER stopped calling themselves "Catholic" with a capital "C."

And when the Pope prays for all those who preach the Gospel in his Mass, he refers to them as to those who teach the "Orthodox Faith.

The use of "Orthodox" and "Catholic" as ecclesial appellations was a later development.

Originally, "Orthodox" referred to what faith you held (that of the Seven Councils or of the three or five Patriarchates in communion with one another).

"Catholic" referred to the Church in the Eucharistic sense.

The Orthodox, when speaking of their Church, always call it the "Catholic Church" ("Kafolicheskaya" in Slavonic).

In Russian, to differentiate between RC's, the Orthodox there spelled "Catholic" with an "F" for the "Th" and called RC's "Katoliky" with a "T."

One Russian Orthodox holy man once commented that "what separates us from the Roman Catholics is really only one letter . . ."

Alex

Are you sure, Alex? I think you are referring to the words of what's called Eucharistic Prayer #1, which I hear a lot at the RC mass. The phrase in English is always rendered "for all those who hold and teach the catholic faith". (See this link, for example: http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0126.htm )

I've never heard the word "Orthodox" used there.

Dear Dolly,

Yes, when he says the Christmas Mass in Latin, he says "Fide Orthodoxa."

I look for it every year when I sit up to watch it on TV.

My mother-in-law once heard it and said, "Look, he's praying for the Orthodox!"

Alex

Hmm, I'll have to check up on that! (Not that I don't trust you! :rolleyes: )

I wouldn't want to think that the Pope, of all people, was "ad libbing" the Mass!

Dear Theist Doll:

EP #1 says as you say: ". . . Catholic faith. . ."

Granting that the Pope, when celebrating the Mass in Latin, says ". . . Fide Orthodoxa . . .," the "F" and the "O" are not capitalized so as NOT to imply that we are praying solely for the Orthodox Church(es) and their faithful: we are, in this part of the Mass, praying for all Catholics and for all Christians alike.

Any knowledgeable (Roman) Catholic knows, or should know, that our faith is orthodox, with a small "o."

AmdG

Hello Alex,

That the Pope says "Fide Orthodoxa" in Latin is interesting.

If it is the same part of the Eucharistic prayer that I'm thinking of in English the translation is "...hold and teach the catholic faith that comes to us from the apostles."

What happened in the American English translation of the Roman Missal?

Or if I'm on the wrong page, please let me know.

Paul

David,

I would disagree with you. It is my theory that most, yes I will say it again most, Catholic Bishops today teach heresy and allow heresy to flourish in their diocese. I realize that I will get a HUGE backlash with this but I am sticking by it.

The Church today is battling one of the biggest heresies it has ever faced. I am hopeful, because the Bible tells me so, that the Church will win in the end. The heresy of modernism, secularism, whatever you want to call it has the Church by the throat.

Many Bishops have fallen pray to its clutches. Whether it is Cardinal Mahoney in LA or the Bishop in Germany sharing Eucharist with Protestants they are in fact in heresy. It should not surprise you that Pope John Paul II has elected most of these Bishops because he is in fact the problem.

I believe it was Pope Paul VI who said before he died in 1978, �The smoke of Satan has entered the very sanctuary of St. Peter's basilica.� Whether you believe this quote or not I believe it to be true even if the Pope did not say it.

Therefore, there are many Catholics who would like to stay loyal to the Church and its teachings who have no other place to go but to an independent Church. For example, they may have the Church next door to their house that mixes honey with wheat germ to make Eucharist host and the Church down the street that has laywomen giving the homily. No matter where they go that have no other option if they want to receive the sacraments in a licit manner. These same Catholics have written to their Bishops only to find in horror their Bishops instructed the priest to operate like this. I could go on and on but the facts are there, if you only want to open your eyes to them.

Like I said I don�t expect most people on this board to agree with me but I also think a lot of the people on this board (specifically �higher� educated people) would not think anything is wrong with what I wrote above. That�s fine!

Now, I have put the Church down a lot but now I must build Her up. Hope is just around the corner because the Bishops, which I have mentioned, are dying off. The younger priests that are coming into the priesthood tend to be very traditional (or so I am told). It is just a matter of time before they will heal the Church.

So, if a Catholic has no licit Church to attend too then I believe that Catholic has every right and is justified under Canon Law to attend a Traditional Church. Just like in the Soviet Union when our faithful could not find a Catholic priest for the sacraments we were allowed to received those sacraments from the Orthodox.

Okay, I get it - so when the Pope says "orthodox," he does not mean Orthodox, any more than when the Orthodox say "catholic" they mean "Catholic"!

See, I knew I'd figure all this out sooner or later!!

Johan, by "higher educated" you mean "educated" enough to know this Pope supports the Traditional Mass, has allowed three religious orders (Fraternity of St. Peter, Institute of Christ the King and Society of St. John) to not only exist but flourish? In addition to several monastic communities who have been approved by him to celebrate only the Tridentine Mass?

These do not appear to be the actions of a "Modernist Pope who is the problem", as you allege. To the contrary. These are the actions of someone genuinely concerned about maintaining the traditions of his flock to those who wish to follow those traditions.

A Pope who spearheaded the reconciliation of an entire separated diocese (Campos, Brazil under Bishop Rifan) back into union with Rome saying only the Tridentine Mass?

The Pope who has encouraged Greek Catholics more than some of our own hierarchy to return to authentic "traditional" liturgical practice with such brilliant gems as Slavorum Apostoli and Orientale Lumen?

What is your definition of licit? Do you consider the New Mass (Novus Ordo) licit at all? I would say 95% of the Catholic world uses that liturgy and that will likely not drastically change overnight.

I don't always profess to understand this Pope's actions but his faith in his writings, his coming to Ukraine and other places to canonize martyrs who perished under Communism, supporting traditional religious orders, etc. speak for themselves as well as his own suffering under the persecution of Communism.

Diak,

I am not talking about the Traditional Latin Mass. I am talking about the priest who do not say the New Mass licitly. I am talking about Honey and Oats for Eucharist bread. I am talking about Women giving Homilies and children playing around the altar, etc... I knew you did not bother to read my last post nor do you probably find anything wrong with what I just posted.

What do I mean about "most Bishops being in heresy"? Well, we could start with a new article today, http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/ma...xhome.html/news/2003/08/28/nconfes28.xml

Just one of many heretical remarks spoken by Catholic Bishops everyday. Any Catholic with any common sense knows ONLY a Priest can hear confessions and grant absolution and ONLY a male can be a Priest. The Church has spoken Infalliably on this and it can not be changed by ANY man!

So that I don't sound like I am rambling let EWTN explain there position:

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum6&recnu=2&number=376079