www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall 61 Deacons To Be Ordained

All,

This month 61 candidates will be ordained to the diaconate by Archbishop Michael Sheehan for the Archdiocese of Santa Fe. This is the largest married Deacon class ever in the United States.

When I look a the number of Deacons around the world the US has way more married Deacons than any other country.

Do you have any thoughts on why the US has so many married Deacons and why other countries have so few?

In Christ,

Paul

Paul, one part of the problem is an extreme shortage of priests in some Latin dioceses - in many places the permanent deacons are the administrators of parishes.

In some places like Africa and South America priestly vocations are much more plentiful.

And as long as there are more priestly vocations there will be no need for deacons in the Roman Church as they really do not have a seprate liturgical function. They seem to be nothing more than "junior priests".

Also I believe some of this may be the married priest group... If you know what I mean.


David

Dear Friends,

I do think that the laity in North America are voting with their diaconal candidates with respect to the priestly ministry.

And many more appear more comfortable serving the Church as a married minister, in the case of the Latin Church, a married deacon, than as a celibate priest.

The Latin Church here has a great deal of sincere soul-searching to do in this regard.

Even when I went to a Catholic high school, the slightest hint that one wished to become a celibate priest invited cat-calls of "homosexual" etc.

With all that's been happening, I believe the Catholic laity have quite the feeling of distrust of their priests.

It may soon be the case that there will be more married deacons and celibate priests here.

And more Eucharistic Ministers - rather than change the man-made rule regarding enforced celibacy in the Latin priesthood, the bishops are content to have our Catholic bookstores expand shelf-space for how-to books for lay ministries.

There is a vocations crisis, don't you know . . .

Sorry, but that is wearing thin.

Alex

Dear Diak,

Thanks for you insight. I agree.

My take is that in the USA celibacy is out. Men want to be married AND serve the church in the ordained ministry. Reinstating the permanent diaconate in the Latin Church and allowing married men to be ordained gives Catholic men the opportunity to do both.

I think that is only a partial answer. I hope there is more response from the forum.

Paul

quote by DaveB:
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"And as long as there are more priestly vocations there will be no need for deacons in the Roman Church as they really do not have a seprate liturgical function. They seem to be nothing more than "junior priests".

Also I believe some of this may be the married priest group... If you know what I mean.

David
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HI Dave,

I see a distinct liturgical "non-function" for Deacons: Deacons cannot consecrate the Eucharist.

Remember A Deacon's first function is service to the the church. I see that as a continuing need.

I see Deacons visiting the sick bringing them Holy Communion, visiting those in prison, preparing couples for marriage, preparing parents and godparents for baptism, serving as vocation directors, etc.

As far as being ,"the married priest group" I see your point. These men are doing such a good job and the with a shortage of priests Rome may decide it is time to ordain them to the priesthood. It won't happen soon, but in the long run I can see it's a possibility.

Peace to you,

Paul

The RCC already has several married clergy in the USA in the person of several former Episcopal and Lutheran pastors.

A very good friend of mine was a former Lutheran pastor that was accepted and ordained as a Roman Catholic priest, and his wife and six kids converted with him. He is the "go to" man in his RC diocese whenever the Latin bishop has problems with a parish. He has 'cleaned up' several now. He started and owned several businesses prior to entering the seminary so he is no stranger to fiscal and personnel management.

And he also in the meantime got bi-ritual faculties for the Byzantine and later for the Maronite rites.

Obviously the RCC has to decide its own path with regards to celibacy. But from my view the married RCC priests I know, who were either Episcopal or Lutheran pastors previously, have been exceptional in their abilities to work with and administer parishes.

Considering the skeletons in the closet with respect to clergy abuse, and vanishing vocations in many places, it seems the RCC might want to consider more economia with respect to priestly celibacy.

61 deacons speaks for itself. This is impressive. May the Holy Spirit guide these men in their ministry.

Dear Diak,

So perhaps the way to go is to complete Catholic seminary, then become a married Episcopal priest and THEN apply to become a Catholic priest!

A longer process than the Eastern Catholic Churches have, but as long as the goal is achieved . . .

Alex

Dear Paul,

"I hope there is more response from the forum."

Sorry, but I don't see myself getting interested in the Latin married diaconate . . .

Would be easier for me since I've no great singing voice - the kind that is really needed in the Eastern Churches.

But no, sorry . . .

Alex

OK - I've been chewing over this one and I am frankly envious of the number of deacons that the American RCs seem to have - or are training.

Here I think in Scotland we have about 4 or maybe as many as 6 Permanent Deacons in the whole Country !

I don't have the latest figures but in 1999

the Archdiocese of Glasgow had 217 Priests - of these 64 were retired or working outwith Glasgow , 2 belonging to a Personal Prelature and 3 were in the Armed forces.
the Diocese of Motherwell had 137 Priests [ 34 retired and 1 Chaplain to the Forces] and 2 Permanent Deacons.
the Diocese of Paisley had 84 Priests [ 27 retired and 1 Chaplain]


The Diocese of Aberdeen - has I believe 2 [ that was the Archbishops previous Diocese ] and I believe that one other Diocese has 1 or maybe 2.

We have very few Transitional Deacons either - and they spend a very limited time in Parish work.

A training Programme for the Permanent Diaconate has been set up and I understand a total of 3 have expressed their interest in Glasgow.

Here there is a shortage of vocations. Our Priests are not getting any younger and there are only a handful of Ordinations to the Priesthood each year.

I'm not sure what the answer is - but people complain that there is no Parish visitation, the Priests seem to be involved with other things at times, our youngsters are not being properly catechised, our Servers are not being properly trained[ and we can't get enough of them either] The Parishes in most cases are being run by the older generation of Parishioners because the younger ones aren't interested [ or that's how it seems]

Can we have some of the American Deacons please ?

Hi Paul,

Yes, in the Eastern Church I do see what you are saying.

As for the Western Church, while it is true a deacon cannot consecrate the Eucharist, he can preside at a marriage and he can baptise. He functions sort of as a "junior priest" there.

I am also talking about the deacon's role during the Liturgy, the Mass in specific. His role appears as if it was an after thought, he is not really needed. Whereas the Divine Liturgy is lacking much when no deacon is present.

The west left behind the idea of a permanent diaconate a long time ago for a trasitional one only. Yes they want to resotre the permanent diaconate, but they have much work ahead of them.

The "married priest group" in the Western Church differs from the same group within the Eastern Church. In the east this is a call to return to our traditions, in the west it is a call to change a long standing tradition.

In my experience, many who are calling for a married priesthood in the Roman Church are also calling for priestesses, contraception, and in some cases, homosexual marriage.

It is not the same thing.


David

Dear Friends,

I'm just wondering what, if any, significance that the high number of married deacons here has in possibly supporting the view that bishops sometimes express with respect to the blurring of the roles of priests and laity.

Being married means these deacons won't become priests. And there are many other lay ministerial roles that are around as well.

Do you think bishops feel the status quo with respect to priestly celibacy is potentially threatened by an influx of married deacons on the one hand - and fewer vocations to the celibate priesthood on the other?

Alex

Dear David,

Is King David your patron saint? Just wondering, there is an akathist to him that I've posted here . . .

I think that if the Roman Church allowed married men to get ordained, the whole issue of married priests would quickly become dissociated from the radical, modernist agenda.

Establishment people all act like establishment people.

Let married priests become part of the RC establishment.

Those who argue that St Peter was the first pope of Rome will also have to admit that, if he was, he was a married pope . . .

Alex

I printed out the akathist to him, but no I never really thought of him as my patron saint.

When I was confirmed (in a Roman Church (long story)) I picked St Patrick because my birthday is his day, March 17th. I would love to find an akathist to him! (hint)

I will not speak on this, as I do not wish Roman's to tell me how my church should act so I do not tell them how their church should act but I will point out one thing, if we find it important for us to return to our traditions, then why would/should we support those in the Roman Church who wish to deviate from their long standing tradition?

I also believe that if we give this "victory" to the radicals it will only incourage them. I do not agree with you that giving in on this point will not promote the "radical, modernist agenda."

As for St Peter being married, that has nothing to do with this.


David

quote by DaveB:
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I am also talking about the deacon's role during the Liturgy, the Mass in specific. His role appears as if it was an after thought, he is not really needed.
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Dave,

You are hard to argue with!! You make good points.

While the RC Deacon is not the point guard in the Holy Mass he does play what I consider an important role:

1. Processes with the Book of Gospels during the entrance procession.

2. Again at the Gospel processes with the Book of Gospels.

3. Proclaims the Gospel.

4. May preach the homily.

4a May baptize

5. Leads the General Intercesions

6. Assists in preparing the chalice for offering the Eucharist.

7. Joins the priest in elevating the Blood of Christ at the Doxology.

8 Distributes Holy Communion.

9. Purifies the sacred vessels.

10. Dismisses the congregation.

The Deacon is pretty busy at the Eucharistic Liturgy, but his main funtion is service to the church outside the Mass.

Paul