www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The Vatican & Trad. Anglicans

Try this one:
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/6189/untitled12fl.jpg

The vestments in that picture are beautiful, but they are not Papal - no pallium.

Incognitus

I know, Incog. I think I said on a different thread how I loved this picture of Papa Bene in trad vestments, but would much prefer him in papal rather than bishop vestments.

Guess we'll have to wait and see on that one...

Logos Teen

Yes, the vestments are lovely, I agree...

But quickly referring back to the topic...

Based on some of the previous posts, there seems to be some confusion in regards to Anglicanism.

Just for clarification sake, the group of Anglicans that are seeking to unite with Rome are NOT part of the Anglican Communion. They are members of the TRADITIONAL Anglican Communion (TAC) and almost all of their member churches verge on the Anglo-Catholic stream of Anglicanism. Their liturgies and rites are based on the Book of Common Prayer and in the US it is the 1928 version (which I have included in a previous post).

Many have asked; should these Anglo-Catholics "return back to their roots" and be merged with Roman Catholicism? The answer is flatly, NO, for a number of reasons. And that seems to be the consensus for both the TAC and their Roman Catholic partners in dialogue.

In the past some have said that an Anglican Rite in the Catholic Church would be an impossibility, yet I have always maintained hope for such a reality. Indeed, today we find ourselves on the threshold of a full, visible unity between a Protestant church and the Catholic Church.

The majority of posters here are Eastern Christians (mainly Eastern Catholics), so many are painfully aware of the ignorance on the part of many Roman Catholics as to the beauty and fullness of faith of Eastern Catholicism.

Should the Anglican Rite be officially launched and sanctioned by Rome as a new sui juris Church, I believe it is of utmost importance for us Catholics (Western and Eastern) to learn of the customs, traditions and liturgical distinctives within Anglicanism. Doing something as simple as researching these topics might serve to inform us in understanding that the modern Roman liturgy is incompatible with the traditional Anglican rite. Surely, there will be some revisions to bring their Anglican services up to Catholic standards, yet "Latinizing" them to the point that they lose their distinctives or or more properly, forcing Roman Catholicism (Novus Ordo) on them or any Rite should NEVER be an option.

I implore all of us to pray for a strengthening of unity for all of the children of God, in the words of the Prayer for Christian Unity.

ProCatholico

How can we allow Protestant liturgical customs, which arise from a bastardization of the True Faith, into the Church?

I ask this in all charity.

Why can't they use the Sarum Rite? What would they have against it?

That it's not "familiar"?

Logos Teen

They DO use the Sarum Rite, it is slightly modified into grammatically correct (not pc) English. The only difference they are asking is for the Institution Narrative to be in the Sarum Rite, the current Anglican Use has an awkwardly inserted Novus Ordo Institution Narrative that really has no reason to be there.

It might help the series of postings here to add the link to a site where some clarification can be obtained.

http://www.themessenger.com.au/news.html

oh note they are going to talk to the "Uniate" sources.

Logos Teen asks: "How can we allow Protestant liturgical customs, which arise from a bastardization of the True Faith, into the Church?"

I've been wondering that for years myself. Such Protestant customs on my list include the drastic iconoclasm of recent years, the use of "lay ministers" of the Eucharist without genuine necessity, the celebration of the "Mass facing the people" . . . you get the idea.

Incognitus

Incognitus, et al


I very much hope that this statement, was a reference to some of the customs that were adopted post-Vatican II in the Roman Catholic Church and NOT referering to the current customs in use by the Traditional Anglican Churches. For, Eucharistic ministers, iconoclasm, and the mass facing the congregation are all foreign to traditional Anglicans. Therefore, I would wish that no one here thought that these Anglicans seeking corporate reunion with Rome would be promoting these customs.

I made the point previously that the distinctives of the traditional Anglican liturgy are incompatible with the normative mass in the Roman Church today.

To suggest that the TRADITIONAL Anglican liturgical rite that would be brought into our Church is a "bastardization" implies a total mischaracterization of that liturgy.

Have none seen or read through the rite in use by the current Anglican Usage in the Roman Catholic Church?

The liturgy of this new group of traditional Anglicans would be very similar, if not the same to that in the Book of Divine Worship.

The differences should be clear.

"My people perish for want of knowledge" Hosea 4:6

ProCatholico

Incog,

I know you may be speaking tongue-in-cheek, but to be honest these things really are unCatholic. Drastic iconoclasm as we've seen in the RCC certainly is, as are EEM's without necessity, etc.

I do think these things are very harmful to the faith of the people, which is rooted in and supported by liturgical functions which adequately reflect Church Teachings.

Logos Teen

I was indeed writing tongue in cheek, perhaps to suggest that those who inhabit crystal palaces ought not to cast stones. Anglicans might well contribute such genuinely worth-while customs as choral Evensong and a regular use of Morning Prayer (only a few years ago I happened to be part of a conversation which included a young man contemplating leaving the Anglicans for the Roman CAtholics. One of his friends pointed out that this would mean relinquishing any possibility of attending Solemn Mass - and the friend was not joking in the slightest, nor did anyone attempt to refute his point).


Incognitus

That just proves my point that all these (mis)implementations have done great damage to the liturgy of the Roman Church.

Now the only places where one can attend Solemn Mass at a Roman Catholic church are in those churches that make use of the TLM. But it can be done; one needn't give up "Solemn Mass" in the Anglican church; and anyway I'd much prefer to give up a Protestant form of worship for a valid Eucharistic Sacrifice of any sort. Actually, I already did; the Methodist services of my childhood and adolesence were far more beautiful than some RC Masses out there.

Logos Teen

The TLM is in Latin, the Solemn Mass in Anglican/Anglican Use is in the vernacular.

Dear Friends,

Let's also remember there are "High Church" Anglicans who can, at times, put Tridentine Catholics to shame . . .

One Anglican priest I knew also commemorated the Pope . . . "Pope John Paul, the Holy Father in Rome" etc.

He told me his bishop really hated it when he did that - but he continues to do that to this day.

The Antiochian Orthodox Church really has more experience with Anglicans than the Latin Catholic Church here.

They have the "Rite of St Tikhon" or the Anglican Use liturgy that they use currently for Anglicans coming over to Orthodoxy who wish to keep their traditions.

I am told by one of their priests that a number are also looking at the full Sarum Use as possibly something to "get into" some time down the road.

The Orthodox who have accepted the Western Rites have done quite a thorough revamping of those traditions that derive from the Protestant Reformation (Incognitus' tongue in cheek reference to the Novus Ordo as deriving from the Reformation is something that others take quite seriously . . . ).

The Anglican Use, when used in the HIgh Church context, and also in both the RC and Orthodox contexts, includes Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, the Rosary, the Stations of the Cross etc. - hardly things to commend it to the Reformation.

It resembles closely the Novus Ordo - and in the Latin Church, the Novus Ordo can also be varied depending on the parish, everything from liberal parishes to those where there is 24 hour adoration of the Blessed Sacrament etc.

When Teen Logo asks why the Anglicans can't return to the Sarum Use - one is truly prompted to ask why the Latins can't return to the Tridentine Rite?

Both liturgical traditions DO have ties to that of the Protestant Reformation.

And, if I ever had to choose between a Catholic Anglican Usage and the Novus Ordo - I would, in all sincerity, attend the Anglican Usage without so much as an afterthought . . .

Alex

By the way, there are Catholics in England who have Mass in public using the Sarum Missal - check out the Society of Saint Osmund. They're raising money to reprint the service books.

Incognitus