www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The Vatican & Trad. Anglicans

I know. They're two different liturgies like I said, anyway.

Agreed! Wholeheartedly! But Dialogue Mass only! None of that silly acolyte-responding-in-place-of-the-people silliness.

And I would choose an Anglican Use Mass over a Novus Ordo one, of course.

Logos Teen

Dear Revered Incognitus,

Thank you for that information!

We have a professor of classics up here who is very much into the Sarum traditions - he even says we should all the Catholics of England "Sarum Catholics . . ."

Alex

Teen,

Traditonal bishops' vestments would include the wearing of the dalmatic, gloves, buskins, etc. Strictly speaking, then Cardinal Ratzinger's vestiture deviates from accepted traditional styled vestiture, yet reflects the "noble simplicity" for which the Fathers of Vatican II were striving in the liturgical services.

I have pictures of Cardinal Ratzinger celebrating the TLM with gloves and all. If you want to see them, just Google it.

I did wonder why he wasn't totally dressed for the occassion this time, but the vestments are still very cool.

What about noble simplicity? What document is that from? Has this been employed by you Eastern Catholics as well?

Logos Teen

Bump.

I'm interested in the answers...

Logos Teen

To your question the term "noble simplicity" is from the CONSTITUTION ON THE SACRED LITURGY SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM , n. 34, also view n. 124 as it relates to vestments.

As to your follow up question, the practical norms contained in the document pertained "only to the Roman rite, except for those which, in the very nature of things, affect other rites as well." (n. 3), but I would say, our services and vestments already reflect a noble simplicity.

Dear LT:

I cannot now locate the news article which quoted Pope Benedict XVI's reference to the celebration of the Mass in "noble simplicity!"

However, the USCCB's Committee on the Liturgy has this to say about tne requisites for the celebration of the Mass.

Scroll down to Articles 325 and 326, where the term "noble simplicity" is used:

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter6.shtml

Amado

Thank you, Fr. Deacon John!

Yes, in one of his recent talks advocating for the Church universal to re-visit (not really to "re-interpret") the conciliar documents of Vatican II, Pope Benedict XVI referred to SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM as envisioning the celebration of the Mass in "noble simplicity!"

Amado

What am amibiguous and easily misunderstood term, don't you think?

What does this term mean to each of you? How would liturgical gloves break with this "noble simplicity," if they do at all, in your opinion.

Like I said, liturgical gloves are still usually employed by bishops when the TLM calls for them, and this includes then-Cardinal Ratzinger.

It seems odd to me to suggest that bishops' gloves aren't in line with whatever this phrase is supposed to mean.

And how do we know that this picture of Cardinal Ratzinger on my avatar was taken before the Washing of the Hands?

Logos Teen

Bump...

Logos Teen

Don't know what all this has to do with traditional Anglicans, but never mind. A propos of gloves, it is amusing to remember that Archbishop Nicholas Elko had a complicated usage in the matter: he used both white gloves and red gloves in the same service - if I remember correctly the red gloves went with the Mandyas and the white gloves with the vestments, but I may be mistaken. It has been said (though this may be an exaggeration) that it required three rings to get him through a Pontifical Liturgy: one ring to match the red gloves, another ring to match the white gloves and a third ring for his ungloved hand.

Three rings - now why does that seem so appropriate for such a performance?

Incognitus

The worry is that some get the 'smells and bells' and ritual confused with the faith. Was it Shakespeare who wrote the lines "all that glisters is not gold"?

Have a thought for others who had to wear all those clothes in all over the world in 40+c heat. I saw a Benedictine Abbot in Australia who was presiding over the Christmas Midnight Mass. His mitre came off and the persperation that had been pooling suddenly came over his eyes when the mitre came off and he could not read the next text. The Abbot remarked that his predecesors had to wear all the many layers of clothes in such heat to preside at these masses. He was grateful that he did not. Those poor sisters in the tropics who had to change their wimples as much as 4 -6 times a day due to the heat as they worked in thick serge fabric.

No thanks I will stick with my Pope, I know I wont go far wrong doing that. I can appreciate art like any other. Yes, the picture is nice but I just dont want it on my wall.

Somehow it seems unlikely that Shakespeare would have written that "all that glisters is not gold". In fact it seems unlikely that anyone would have written that - "glister" is a verb with which I am not familiar.

Incognitus

incognitus,

maybe you need to do more crossword puzzles. :p

from WordNet:

glister- n : the quality of glittering or sparkling brightly [syn: glitter, glisten, scintillation, sparkle]

From Merriam Webster:

glister- intransitive verb : glitter

Dear Father Deacon,
Alas, I've never been any good at crossword puzzles. But I do remember the proverb:

All that glitters is not gelt"!

Incognitus