www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Byzantine Catholic?

Hi

One of my friends is a former Roman seminarian interested in the Eastern Cattolic Church and I told him about Byzantine Catholics, and explained that they are not Roman Catholics and all that stuff.

He searched in a site thought to be that of the Byzantine Catholic Church but some of the details he discussed with me sounded weird and I wanted to see what site he had seen. And to my surprise this was the site:

http://mark1x1.tripod.com/thebyzantinecatholicchurchincindependentjurisdictionphotos/id1.html

This site seems very much like a "parody" of the Byzantine Catholic Church, run by an hetherodox group. They have a "Patriarchal See" whose head is also the Patriarch of Hungary :

http://members.tripod.com/~BCCPatriarchate/index.html

and an American Metropolia:

http://met.gen.am.freeservers.com/index.html

(apparently this was the page that my friend visited)

The thing here is that these people cause confussion, they use the title of your Church and have strange ideas. I wonder how many people have come into that site.

Yet another weirdo taking a "Mar" name but claiming to be Byzantine...

You are so right! No mar, just mor(e)!

Yeah, this is a typical "vagante" group

Actually, the have every right to call themselves "Orthodox in Communion With No One"

Axios

Nicely ecletic use of vestments though! Look at the Roman Miter with the Phelonion on one!!

Looks like a strange group.

Even my pc acted strange on that web site

Thanks for the alert.

Paul

A number of years ago, while doing research in the Melton book on "American Religions", I ran across this group among a large number of others who are listed under "Eastern". I've kind of followed their postings and their web site to see how they develop.

My first thought is: these folks are really desirious of being a "faith community" (I know people HATE that term) as well as seekers of how to integrate their daily realities with legitimate paths of spiritual progress and union with God. They accept anything and everything that is legitimately orthodoxly Christian, but they make allowances for folks whose lives have put them outside the pale of orthodox Christian community. Divorced folks, gay/lesbian folks, interracial couples, etc. And they say: we are a legitimate Christian community (proved by Apostolic succession and valid "orders") but who perceive the Gospel to include these "outsiders".

They include the sacraments, the priesthood, preaching of the Gospel, ministry to those in need, and the (sometimes wild) vesture, titles, and administrative structures of the "church".

When Matthew Clark (Anglo-Irish) becomes Matyas Clark, Primate of Hungary of the Byzantine Catholic Church in America (non-Roman Catholic), this is nothing more than an attempt to follow the paradigms of the traditional Christian Church. Perhaps to gain "legitimacy" or perhaps to attempt to follow what is legitimate Christian practices. This judgement is the Lord's; not ours.

Our Antiochian brethren undertook the wholesale incorporation of the "Campus Crusade for Christ" (fundamentalist Protestant) into the Antiochian Diocese. There was some success and some not so fruitful incorporation. But at least they tried.

For us Byzantines, we must absolutely continue to be who and what we are. We must be the light - not under the bushel basket. And we must love and cherish all who knock on the door. We must allow folks to come in and see who we are and how we live our lives. And if they are truly desirous of trying a new "path to Glory", then we should welcome them to us. But we must be absolutely steadfast in remembering that we are who we ARE; and we are not in the business of making arbitrary changes to accommodate those who come to us as pilgrims. While we can (and should) make changes in our Church as circumstances change, it should be out of necessity and not because we are chomping at the bit to gain new convert numbers.

If this Byzantine Catholic, Inc. group came to us as friends seeking to work together, then we should do so. If they come to pray and worship, GREAT! If they come to say that the patriarchal system sucks and needs change, then we should talk with them, but not make changes because we want their group in our community.

It is a delicate balancing act: receptive to all who knock at the door, and retaining the true spiritual charism that is the hallmark of the Byzantine Church.

Oy veh. Such a problem.

Blessings, y'all!

I remember now that this site was listed along with many other hetherodox sites that masquerade as Orthodox or Eastern Catholic, in a list I posted here not so long ago.

It is not a surprise that they trace their "apostolic succession" in a Bishop called Aftimios, who was a canonical Bishop but lost his head when he came here and consacrated Bishops everywhere. Dozens of "patriarchs" and "bishops" from internet sites trace their origin in this Bishop (and they also say Patriarch Tychon was the founer of their Churches).

Dr. John's comments are quite true. I certainly have respect for people who participate in those Churches, there must be many christians of good will who have found a sense of community, acceptance and love in those groups, that they didn't find in the mainstram Orthodox and Catholic Churches, maybe because of the burocratic procedures that people need for their reception in the Church, such as paperwork(specially in the Catholic Church), and the kind of cathecumenate that is practiced in Orthodox jurisdictions.

Maybe if there was a cruzade to bring Protestant groups into the Orthodox Church (I don't fully agree with the way some ex-protestants have brought strange ideas into Orthodoxy but the idea is good), I think there's a cruzade needed in order to inetgrate these groups.

I think that Remie is basically right in his understanding. Aftemios Ofiesh was an Antiochian priest who came here to the U.S. to minister to the Arabic speaking Orthodox Christians. The Russians, being the largest group (maybe), realized that in order to integrate all these various Orthodox Christians in the US under their omophor, they had to have a hierarch who could deal with their communities. So, Fr. Aftemios was consecrated bishop under the Russian jurisdiction. Unfortunately, Bishop Aftemios consecrated a number of "converts" who were supposed to expand "Orthodoxy" to Western folks of fertile mind. Unfortunately, they were converted to 'orthodoxy', but reneged on the affiliation with the patriarchal and hierarchal structure. I.e., they established their own "churches" that they claimed were of legitimate apostolic origin. Hence, the panoply of "orthodox" and "catholic" groups of independent status.

I know that I'll get in trouble for this with the more "traditionalist" theological groups, but: canonicity and legitimate orders do NOT depend upon lineage, but rather upon one's affiliation and "good standing" with one or another of the ancient patriarchates. That is: one can be as BYZANTINE (bold, caps, underline) as one proposes and lives, but if the group is NOT accepted by the Byzantine Patriarch (or some other patriarch of legitimate status) then --- it's just Halloween. The "magic" of apostolic orders is nice; but it doesn't suffice to bring one into the real Church. One has to be part of the CHURCH (as divided and schismed as it may be!) with communion with one or another of the communion of bishops that constitutes the apostolic Christian community.

Going to Madame Stein's Costume Emporium, and purchasing all sorts of regalia does NOT mean one is an X or Y or Z Christian. It's the communion within the sacraments that counts.

Blessings, y'all!