www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Why do so few BC Priests wear beards?

Which bishop Papp? (Can't be Nathaniel he spells it Popp I think, right?) Stefan of Irmologion fame was not a bishop...



[ 08-19-2002: Message edited by: Bob King ]

Bishop Anthony (1912-1924 Mukachevo).

Dear friends,
Christ is among us!
I have had a beard and not had a beard, the same priest was and is inside. Sometimes, it just gets too hard to keep it clean and in the summer I sweat! I, for one, am never intimidated by Roman Catholics, I think they are of me!
Fr. Vladimir

Oh, OK. Interesting you chose him, for some reason surely.

In the context of bishops' policies I would also mention Takacs and Elko, surely their policies are better known, more recent, and still impact the Ruthenian BC Church in America.

Dear Traveler,

What an excellent beard, and a lovely post. May his memory be eternal+

Rose

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!
SLAVA NA VIKI BOHU!

Fr. Vladimir wrote:"I have had a beard and not had a beard, the same priest was and is inside..."

YOU GO FR.VLADIMIR! I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY agree with you!

Which parish are you at in Cleveland? It may be worth a visit next time I'm in Cleveland.

the least servant of the servants of God!
mark

No, he dealt with more substantial issues, like infant communion, the Epiclesis issue, and in general the widely-held belief among many Eastern Catholics (including bishops) that Roman ways are superior, a higher form of development. He specifically said that many of the hierarchs have been foot-dragging over the restoration of authentic Eastern traditions because they see these traditions as being inherently inferior to Latin ones.

When I speak of bishops being intimidated, this is what I mean. When I look at the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches, I do not see the kind of vision, drive and moral courage that I see routinely in the Melkite Church.

Dear Stuart,

Every Church has its own historical development that is distinct.

Yes, the Melkites are great, but again did they suffer from the same sort of pressures, religious, social, cultural and national, that the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches did where Big Brother RC tried to wipe them out altogether?

The superiority of the Latin Church wasn't hard to establish among the Eastern Catholics of Europe.

The Jesuit schools of the 17th century especially exerted a tremendous hold over the minds and hearts of so many.

The Orthodox tradition appeared anti-intellectual, and otherwise pale by comparison.

Today, liturgiologists, such as yourself, hearken to a return to the sources etc.

In those days, such a clarion call must have seemed like a call to the underdeveloped stages of early Christianity and so intellectually primitive etc.

There are many reasons for us NOT to make sweeping generalizations of comparison such as you have just made.

Alex

Alex, if your family of origin and/or loved ones (include yourself in either or both groups) were victims of attempted extinguishment, elimination, or wiping out altogeher, on what sort of terms would you find yourself with your agressor?

Yes, I know Our Lord's commandment to love our enemies and to forgive up to 70 x 7 and so on. I do not dispute any of that. But would you still snuggle up to one who wants to eliminate you?

I do not want to be misunderstood, let me be clear. But if you feel that way, and you think history supports your view (which I think it does) how can you remain Catholic (meaning in Union with Rome)?

Bob

Bob:

Our interactions with Hungarian and Polish RC's have been difficult - for understandable reasons (do you support Spanish language schools in the US?) - but we managed to develop a modus vivendi tthat allowed us to remain us.

Contrast this situation with our interactions with the Russian Orthodox, where Russification has been the norm. This may be best exemplified in Belarus, but how different is it in the OCA? With an estimated 60% of its members of Carpatho-Russian extraction, just how much of our way, using prostopinije as one, exemplary indicator, will you find.

ButI suppose there are those who feel that the Russian way is inherently superior, that our people's practices are inferior (isn't it tough to be Malo, when you really want to be Great).

djs


PS I understand from Ung-Certez's posts that the situation is better now in Trans-Carpathia, and am delighjted to hear it!
[ 08-20-2002: Message edited by: djs ]

[ 08-20-2002: Message edited by: djs ]

Dear djs,

A very good point on the "Little" and "Great" issue!

And I really don't want to get involved in cultural affairs as I tend to raise the "ire" of a number of people here who forget, for a time, what a wonderful fellow I really am and how much they cannot help but love me . . .

As you know, the Greeks understood "Micra" or "Little" in terms of "essential" or "most significant" while "Macra" or "Great" referred to the inessential greater mass that surrounded it . . .

So I don't mind being "Little" at all . . .

Alex

StuartK:


And did he provide evidence of this putative causal relationship?

It sounds like he may have been trying to embarass them into working faster by being provocative on a point that they would vigorously dispute. If they authentically feel this way, his pointing it out would be litte effect.

I can undestand other reasons for foot-dragging. Think of the comments made on other threads about things in the past having been rammed down the throats of unprepared parishioners. Our people will take some time. This "mal-adaptivity", may seem strange, but it is a part of our make-up that was crucial to our surviving the Magyar millenium.

djs

Dear djs,

Another excellent point, Man of God!

The Church must have pastoral senstivity in this area, as did St Alexis Toth and others, in handling the devotional practices of the faithful, even when these don't mesh with an Eastern agenda.

Or as many Orthodox would say who picked up the habit of saying the Rosary - "This was first revealed to an ORTHODOX monk in the 8th century . . ."

Alex

Difficult, no doubt to talk about this. I think I am aware of this.

Do I support Spanish-language schools I don't see what that has to do with this. I do not want to stray too far off topic as that is too easy.

I think that I am well aware of the history (not so good with some names...) so yes, look at the fact that immediatly after the Union in Uzhhorod the flock became subject to a Hungarian RC bishop for quite some time....not days or months. But that is not my point. Perhaps Alex' comment was passionless and academic. The choice of words leads me to believe otherwise. Surely to be Greek Catholic is not easy, I know that as I lived it. To be Carpatho-Russian, Rusin, Rusyn, Rusnak, Ruthenian, all that is hard too. Put them together and what do you have?

Of course Alex is speaking from a Ukrainian experience which, I think, has reflected more integrity that the Ruthenian experience. As you know, in 1596 there were bishops involved in the Union of Brest-Litovsk, the Ruthenian bishop did not enter into Union only priests and deacons. So immediatly the Ruthenian Catholics were orphans. (They say our childhood and infancy experiences shape us more than we know, perhaps with all due respect that analogy can be applied here?)

Bob

Bob:
We did not have an independent Eparchy until 1771, but, unlike the Russian Catholics, our flock was under our own bishops:

Parthnius P. Petrovich till 1665
Joseph Voloshinsky 1667-1675
Theophane Mavrocordato 1676-1686
Raphael A. Havrylovych 1687-1688
Methodius Rakoveckij 1688-1689
John J. deCamillis 1689-1706
George G. Bizancij 1716-1733
Simeon S. Olshavskij 1734-1737
George G. Blazhovshij 1738-1742
Micael M. Olshavskij 1743-1767

djs