www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Temples... what are they now?

With the decline in congregations sizes (especially in Pa./N.J./Ohio), I am curious as to what has become of former BC churches (temples) once they were closed. Can they be sold and then used for non-sacred purposes? Do the P3 eparchies now have "white elephants" on their hands?

The former Eparchy of Passaic Byzantine Catholic church in Jacksonville, Florida is now an Orthodox (OCA) church... how ironic, since what was the Byzantine Catholic parish was originally letting the Orthodox mission parish use the facility. Now the B.C. parish is defunct and the Orthodox mission is a full-fledged parish. Go figure...

St. Michael's in South Hadley, MA was sold to some independent, evangelical protestant congregation. This included the bell in the free-standing tower and outdoor mosaic icon shrine to St. Nicholas! I'm sure that the new owners utilize the bell as they process to the shrine singing "O Kto, Kto!" The Holy Table, and the other 2 tables in the sanctuary, the icon screen, and wall and dome icons were sold to St. Michael's Antiochian Orthodox Mission on Cape Cod, MA. The baptismal font is now used at Holy Trinity in New Britain, CT. Happily it's been utilized 5 times since coming there, not including Theophany water blessings.

The old St. Michaels Greek-Catholic Church on Wolfe Street in Baltimore (Ukrainian persuasion) was sold when the new complex on Eastern Avenue was dedicated. It is now a condominium. However, the cupola, replete with trefoil cross, remains atop the structure that now has window boxes and geraniums.

Oy.

I sorry Dr. John I had to laugh at that one. I wonder how much extra they get for having the cross on top as an attraction

Well maybe there will be conversions from it. After all how can you live under the foot of the Cross and not come to know Jesus.

Rose

And I believe old St. Michael's in Toledo was bought by Baptists.

There's a rather "funny" example of a "former church" here in Columbus. There was a tiny, not very canonical "Orthodox" church operated by a "priest" who became a guest of the state on more than one occasion. The church itself was a small house, upon which a gold dome was mounted. Said gold dome is still atop the building, which now houses a trucking company.


Sharon

Sharon, if you could, let me know where that place is. I have an affinity (obsession? fetish?) about photographing "old" churches and buildings, i.e., prior to 1940. Including "convert" buildings. I got summonsed to Columbus in late June to testify at a Corrections Dept hearing - fast in-and-out, otherwise I would have called you- , and I am coming back for a Correcions Officers' Convention in mid-September and I'll get a rental car and go photo the place.

If I ever hit the lottery, I would start scouring archives for locations of "former" churches-of-interest, and then go on the road-trip from hell. I think it would make a fascinating book of the coffee-table variety.

For your info and edification, in Arlington (Virginia) in the Rosslyn section near the Key Bridge into DC, there is a Methodist parish on a pointed-corner piece of land. The ground level is a gas station with the church up above it. It is the only combo gas station/church in the U.S. {Just another piece of 'trivia' to be used at cocktail parties!!}

Blessings!

I mean, here in Mexico, in the 1970's, when the Old Rite Roman priests refused to give their parishes to the hierarchy, the army evicted them from the temples (an unfortunate similar incident occured in a small village near Mexico City, between Orthodox and Catholics.)

My question is about how the parish system works in the United States. So the parishes can swtich from one Church to another so easily? how does that happen? aren't the temples part of the Bishophric or the denomination they belong to? Why didn't the Byzantine Catholic Bishop asked the SDtate for the devolution of the churches you've mentioned?

Dr. John,

I don't think this one qualifies - I think the house itself dates from the 1950s or 60s, but it's quite visible on the west side of Hamilton Road, not too far south of E. Broad Street.

If you'd like a building worth photographing, check out Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral. The current building (spectacular inside and out, and providing balance to the appalling Convention Center across the street) is quite recent, but the old church, behind and linked to the new, probably meets your specs.

There's also an RC church in Columbus which is now a Protestant church of color - I think it's Baptist, but it's been awhile since I drove by. The interesting thing about this one is that originally, the building was an "identical twin" to another Catholic church built at the same time, on t'other side of town.

Oh, if ya get a chance, check out the Pontifical College Josephinum.


Best,

Sharon
(Who worships in a building erected in 1974)

Hi,

In Mexico, all religious buildings are, by law, Federal property in care of a specific religious organization.

In case of a group splitting from the Catholic Church, such group has to give all the property back to the legal care-taker, that is, the Catholic jurisdiction. If they don't, they can face legal action.

I am not familiar with the incident with the Orthodox, but it might be similar.

In the United States, as far as I can tell, religious buildings belong to the Churches and each Church is free to do with their property as they see fit.

A Church can rent, lease or sell a building to another person or corporation, just like that.

Shalom,
Memo.

John K<<St. Michael's in South Hadley, MA was sold to some independent, evangelical protestant congregation. This included the bell in the free-standing tower and outdoor mosaic icon shrine to St. Nicholas!>>

I drove by the former St. Michael's in South Hadley a few months back. The mosaic icons of St. Nicholas and St. Michael on the outdoor shrine have been defaced. The minister had his van right up to the front door of the former Byzantine church, hood up, etc., while changing its oil! Sad, sad, sad! I'm glad to learn from you that at least the internal liturgical furnishings have been put to good use in an Antiochian church and in an OCA church and not subject to sacrilege as well!

OrthodoxEast

Thanks for the update on the former St. Michael's. It is sad indeed. No one cared enough make sure that the icon on the shrine was removed or the consecrated bell--which was from the former church in Holyoke was taken down and at least donated to another Byzantine Catholic parish in need of one. (I'm sure that there is at least one parish in the Pittsburgh Metropolia that doesn't have a screen that could have used the one in St. Michael's.) <Grin> ;-)

The baptismal font, btw, resides in Holy Trinity Byzantine Catholic Church in New Britain, not Holy Trinity OCA in New Britain.

Dr. John wrote:"...The old St. Michaels Greek-Catholic Church on Wolfe Street in Baltimore (Ukrainian persuasion) was sold when the new complex on Eastern Avenue was dedicated. It is now a condominium. However, the cupola, replete with trefoil cross, remains atop the structure that now has window boxes and geraniums..."

This St. Michael's was originally 2 row-homes (town houses) that had the walls knocked down inside to form the church. The houses were built in the 1840's. That whole area is under gowing a "gentrification" that is turning the whole neighborhood around.

mark

I know this isn't BC-related, but it is interesting and I will share it anyway:

My parish (OCA) built a new church in 1995. The old church, a former Protestant church, was sold to a couple who remodeled it into a house. It has been bought and sold a few times, and (as far has I know) has just recently been purchased by an Orthodox gentleman from New York. I found it nice to know that our old church will be "Orthodox" again .

Dave

In the United States, as far as I can tell, religious buildings belong to the Churches and each Church is free to do with their property as they see fit.

A Church can rent, lease or sell a building to another person or corporation, just like that.

Yea but what I mean, if the church belongs to a Church and its its property. How can an individual parish separate and affiliate with another denomination. (like Byzcath parishes turning Orthodox)

On a sad note, it was just reported that St. Michael in Lorain, Ohio is closing. (Already has a buyer.)

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/...amp;newsid=9936020&PAG=461&rfi=9

Hmmmm. Sad in a way yes, but a positive note in another. How is it that churches under the same jurisdiction can be a mile apart? Is that situation healthy, especially if one pastor has to split his attention between the two? A priest friend is in much the same situation, with two parishes less than 10 miles apart. It's more complicated tho' since the rectory is attached to the moribund parish, and there ain't none at the other.

Sharon

We moved two years ago from our old church which is now- get this- a Mosque.

We took the cross off the dome with us and its replaced by a cresent sun. Its ok because the neighborhood was very rough and our priest was mugged on numerous occasions. When moving, the Muslim community was very nice and fraternal. Most are from Somalia.

Sharon,
Go to Chicago and you'll see a cathedral and a huge parish two blocks from each other. Same jurisdiction...

-uc

Same jurisdiction, but different planets? :p

Different galaxies

OK. I was working up at Morgan State University in Baltimore last week and I remembered to bring my camera.

Voila! As the stained glass over the door used to say: St. Michael Ukr. Gk. Cath. Church.



And the cornerstone:


And further:


And also:


The truck outside is from the painters who are doing the former rectory (on the left side of the image).

The downstairs of the church building is renting for (please sit down and grab hold!) $2,400 a month. The upstairs units are $1,600 each (two on the upper level).

The rectory ground floor is $1,800 and the upstairs is $1,400 a month.

I hope our Ukraininan brethren got a TON of money for the property - the neighborhood is now undergoing yuppyfication. Lots of boutiquey stuff springing up in the neighborhood. The Polskies have a large senior citizen apartment building about 3 blocks away, near St. Stanislaus' church. Unfortunately, the Conventual Franciscans and the Archdiocese closed the parish.

Blessings!

Ooops. Made and edit and it repeated the whole thing. Sorry.

Hello Snoopy,

I see a few days have gone by and it seems no one has addressed your question so I'll give it a try.

To answer your basic question about the transfer of the temples, what we are dealing with here is mostly a case of the congregation selling the building and the money is applied elsewhere. A simple Real Estate transaction, the congregation vacates (if many people are left) and use something else.

There was a time in the Catholic church U.S.A when the title of the church building was normally held by the congregation. It is sometimes called trusteeism, it was a financial mechanism to erect parishes in an environment where there was no state support or wealthy donors. People formed a club, like an ethnic club and raised money for a church, then asked the bishop for a priest or sent overseas for one. But the control was in the hands of the trustees who held the mortgage and the title when the debt was paid.

The Catholic parish churches today usually have the title in the name of the bishop, so he controls the keys in reality. Religious orders on the other hand retain the titles to their property like hospitals and monasteries but not parish churches. The congregation would not be able to leave the jurisdiction as a body and take the property, they would need to raise the funds to build or buy another structure if they were so inclined, and that has happened.

There are many cases of parishes under trusteeism withdrawing over some parochial dispute and affiliating with another Church. When the congregation is divided over the decision that means court battles. It is my understanding that this issue was one of the major reasons for the formation of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox church, between the celibacy rule and the transfer of titles to the bishops control a significant number of parishes withdrew from the Catholic church and as a body affiliated with Constantinople.

The Protestant Episcopal church has been losing congregations due to recent headline issues and often they are able to take their property into the new affiliation, although there may be a court test involved.

I believe that most Orthodox parishes still retain the property titles at the parish level, as do the Polish National Catholic Church (Old Catholic) and most Protestant churches. If they choose to affiliate with another jurisdiction it sometimes can happen or if they decide to move the congregation to a new neighborhood they just sell out .

There is a procedure involved in deconsecrating the property, and usually churches in the U.S.A do not have burials around the church so it is not a concern about leaving the beloved behind.

In Christ,
Michael