www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The Byzantine Forum

Here is what other Catholics, Roman and Byzantine, say about the Byzantine Forum:

http://forum.catholic.org/viewtopic.php?t=36997

I thought that www.byzcath.org is a Byzantine Catholic website, yet some of the administrators of the Byzantine Forum are Orthodox priests. I find this to be quite strange.

Many of the posters are Orthodox Christians. Others claim to be Eastern Catholics, but have not obtained permission to change Churches from the respective Bishops in their old Church and the new Church. A few have not even gone through any type of Rite of Christian Initiation to leave a Protestant Church and join a Catholic Church.

I now understand why so many people have jumped down my throat whenever I have posted something that was somehow inconsisted with the beliefs of the Orthodox Church. I now understand why so many posters are strident anti-Roman Catholics. I now understand why so many posters have said they would prefer to be Orthodox Christians than Roman Catholics if the Byzantine Catholic Church was unavailable.

My Catholic friends - your Forum has been hijacked by the Orthodox.

Finally, I now have learned the place where many people who have left the Byzantine Forum have gone so that they can be part of a Catholic Forum - one of both lungs, Roman and Byzantine. I am going to register now.

My prayers in advance for the administrator who deletes this topic. It is so much easier to stamp out the truth than to address the actual facts. I am guilty of doing the same thing on many occasions.

JP

P.S.

Father Anthony:

After much due diligence, I may have the answer to the Holy Fire of Jerusalem. Send me an e-mail at jppoland@sbcglobal.net if you want to know the details.

Mr. Poland,

This struck me as the saddest part of your post. It seems that you dislike Orthodox Christians, and Orthodox Priests moderating here.

Are Orthodox not Christians? Are Orthodox priests not priests? Are Orthodox faithful not our brothers and sisters in Christ?

I have not found any of the posters to be "strident anti-Roman Catholics," in all the years I have been posting here. "Strident" and "anti" are sure powerful words. Perhaps a bit unfair, or un-Christian, no?

I don't know... I just find your post to be truly sad. Instead of making harsh statements, would it not be better to pray for those you consider your adversaries, especially since both East and West-- both Lungs, are celebrating and rejoicing in the Light of the Ressurection?

I do pray that you will find peace at the new forum. I am sorry that you feel the resentment that you do. I just feel this is a great place where people of all different traditions and faiths have come together. Sure there are sometimes fights or a clashing of ideas, but at the end of the day, I am sure a lot of us pray for unity of all our churches, and for each other.

I hope I can stand next you one day at some Liturgy where both East and West are reunited. I am sure praying and helping to work for that ultimate goal.

I hope you are too.

Be well at the new Forum. I hope you find it a place free of hijackings and other Orthodox interference........

-ukrainiancatholic, a relative of many priests and a bishop of the Ukrainian Orthodox and Catholic Churches who were brutally killed for their unwavering faith in the Risen Christ.

Well one thing I can promise is at the forumscatholic.com where I post, you will find many Orthodox, Fr. Ambrose, the moderator of that forum for one.

This may be one such discussion you have missed - it is sad to me - http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=110269
Unfortunately the discussion is not done in a spirit of love, but confrontation.

But you know what? Here on Byzcath, we have wonderful Orthodox and Catholic Priests and Deacons who give of their time to minister to a cyber world. Yes they stand up for their part of the faith, i.e. Catholic or Orthodox - they must defend it, but more often than not they work to bring about understanding. Not to lead anyone away from where they are but to help us see how the other thinks.

It has been a long time since we have had an all out tug of war here on Byzcath, the admin more often than not gets acused of not allowing anyone to have a decenting opinion. Which is entirely the opposite of what you are saying.

I have been blessed to gain many delightful cyber friends from all walks of the Sacramental Churches here on the Byzantine Forum and I thank God for that precious gift!

Pani Rose

I have found this forum to be one of the few places on the Internet where Latin Catholics and Orthodox can exchange ideas in a spirit of mutual respect and charity.

John Patrick,

I can say that, as a Roman Catholic, I don't really agree with you.

Although this might be a Catholic site, it isn't a Catholic forum, but rather an Eastern Christian one. Therefore, Roman Catholics like myself are outsiders/guests here, and the Orthodox are not.

And though I do agree that at times some posts here can be very "anti-Roman Catholic," there are also quite a few posts that are "anti-Orthodox," to employ your terminology.

I think this Forum sees an ebb and flow of the abovementioned antis, for a few weeks/days seeing a general "anti-RC" attitude and then switching gears to an "anti-EO" attitude in many of the posts. This is totally understandable as many Byzantine Catholics here (rightfully) struggle to find their happy medium.

I think our Orthodox posters here have always acted with great charity, like Fr. Anthony, Alice, Chtec, Brian, Zenovia, Rilian, etc.

I have my beliefs about the Roman Catholic Church specifically and about the Catholic Communion of Churches as a whole, and I know that many on here disagree with me, but I try to make it a nonissue unless I think Catholic dogma is at stake. Perhaps you could try that route.

Logos Teen

John Patrick,

If that really is your view on our Forum then I have to respect it , after all a great deal of thought must have gone into forming it.

However , being perfectly frank I don't agree with you.

Teen is correct - though the main Site - www.byzcath.org is indeed a Catholic one, the Forum is not - it is a Christian one - and I would ask you to remember that we have had non-Christians posting here.

I can't honestly see any Orthodox bias among the Admins/Mods

Our Admins as far as I can see are spread fairly - 2 Priests - one Eastern Catholic , one Orthodox Christian : 1 Eastern Catholic Lay Member: 1 Eastern Catholic Deacon .

Moderators - one EC Lay Person [ inactive] and three specialist EC Lay People on a specialist Forum [ Kliros], one lay Orthodox Christian : three Eastern Catholic Deacons : two Eastern Catholic Priests, two Orthodox Christian Priests [ one of whom is inactive ]

How can anyone say that the Byzcath Forum has been hi-jacked by the Orthodox ?

Ah well - it takes all sorts to make the world and each person forms his own views.

Mr Poland - I wish you well in your search for a Forum where you will feel at ease - I'm comfortable here , and here I will stay.
I have looked at other Boards - I'm a member in a few other places and I occasionally post on other Boards , but Byzcath is my home and it's Members are my family - we rejoice together , we are in pain together , we pray together , we fight [ at times ] among ourselves - we are a family with all the tensions that there are in families.

When I am in Lourdes later this month I will light a candle for you in the Grotto there and ask Our Blessed Mother , Mary ever virgin , to protect you and lead you to Her most wonderful Son

Anhelyna

We're not Orthodox?

Dear John Patrick,

For your information the link you provided is pretty old news...infact one of the posters felt so bad by it that she posted an apology on the Prayer Thread here. She and I talked it out privately as I had immense respect for her, and as good Christians all is now forgiven and more importantly, all is now forgotten.

It is especially curious to me personally that you feel that there is anti-catholic or pro-orthodox sentiments on the part of moderators because I have been singled out in the past and attacked by some zealous Orthodox posters for 'not REALLY being Orthodox' because I do not do this! :rolleyes:

I wonder, however, if you have a bias towards the Orthodox?

Is this the most perfectly fair forum in the world? Probably not-- but as far as Catholics and Orthodox coming together in love for the Lord who died for all of us, I think that it comes pretty close.

If we cannot discuss with each other, if we cannot debate with each other, if we cannot pray with each other, if we cannot learn about each other and each other's traditions, if we cannot try to see the other's viewpoint, if we cannot cross cultural, racial and ethnic barriers, and if we cannot get to know each other as sisters and brothers in Christ's love, then we have let no human being down, be it an administrator, moderator or poster--we have let our Lord down in not achieving the greatest virtue He desired of us, that we love one another and not judge each other.

Wishing you peace,
Alice

"Others claim to be Eastern Catholics, but have not obtained permission to change Churches from the respective Bishops in their old Church and the new Church. A few have not even gone through any type of Rite of Christian Initiation to leave a Protestant Church and join a Catholic Church."

And how do you know any of this? I don't remember anyone volunteering any of this information.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Friends,

This is the most even handed forum on which I've ever participated. I thank God for John Vernoski and for almost every poster here. Sometimes sparks fly but John and so many others are so knowlegeable and peaceable that they are soon extinguished and the rest of us learn by example. They aren't extinguished by repression but by knowledge and understanding. If necessary some are asked to cool off for a bit but John and the moderators are extraordinarily wise.

I've noticed that on every forum I'm on people come on from time to time who love to stir things up and create conspiracy whether there is one or not. I'd hate to think John Patrick is one such person.

CDL

That's right, and we're simply asking for a paltry "one meeelllleeeon dollars" for you to have it back.

Andrew

This is funny. And I believe it to be the pivotal point for this and another topic

http://forum.catholic.org/viewtopic.php?t=39253

In Christ,

Michael

Dear Andrew,

I have 10 million lira. Will that work?

Michael

I wonder who JP could be? I wonder who wrote this there and here?

At any rate: I think St. Theresa is a wonderful saint. I teach about her and the Thirty Three Doctors of the Church in my classes at the Un. of St. Francis where I teach Catholic Theology and History at a Roman Catholic University. I'm also very much Orthodox in Communion with Rome. JP can like it or not.

CDL

I wish more Orthodox would "hijack" this forum!

you go girl! Miss Alice has all of her duckies in a row, and she knows what time it is, yes she does. that's right. tell me I'm lying!

I don't see the problem, since there is no problem to see. perjhaps the reason why there are canonical Orthodox Priests acting as moderators, is because there are more of them than there are EC Priests. as far as alleged ECs who didn't get permission to come over from Roman Catholicism to the East, now that is patently silly, John, honestly, bro, you should know better, and I know that you do. if your heart is in the East, you are in the East, and "permission" is but a final formality to the whole process. I don't see canonical Orthodox moderators trying to sheep steal ECs. we ECs are a tad too intelligent to be lured in by any imagined sheep stealing, believe me, I have dealt with Orthodox trying to pull that nonsense on me. and I am still loyal to the Holy See as an EC. come on John, stay here with us, dude.
Much Love,
Jonn

And your point with this is?

I don't know about "many". But yes. I have the heart of an Eastern Catholic (I think) but I am still technically a Roman Catholic. Why? Because the Eparchy in which I am located requires that I attend a Byzantine parish for THREE years before I can petition for a Canonical Change of Rite.

I am about halfway into that three year wait.

In the meantime I do not represent myself as a Roman Catholic because I have not attended a Roman Catholic Mass in well over a year and I have no intention of ever doing so again (barring a marriage or funeral of a Roman Catholic friend).

But again I ask, so what?

So there are people here who are not Catholic or Orthodox! Gasp! The scandal. I am shocked.

I still fail to see the point you are trying to make here.

The one thing that you make abundantly clear is your dislike for all things and all people Orthodox.

Pity. There is a lot to be learned from everyone who particpates on this board, Orthodox or otherwise. You're closing yourself off to some great information and some amazing minds.

And the only thing I can recall anyone jumping down your throat for (as you put it) was your insistance that Catholics of the Eastern Rites should abandon our liturgical calendar and celebrate the Roman Calendar including Divine Mercy Sunday. A point on which, you were being disagreed with not because your post didn't support the Orthodox view but because your insistance on forcing Eastern Catholics to adhere to a Roman Catholic observation was not in line with the Eastern Catholic view.

Obviously though if you'll be happier on another board - go. Enjoy. But don't try to blame your experiences here on the wonderfully intelligent, knowledgeable and faithful people here. That's just wrong.

Carole

Actually that won�t be necessary. I just received a cable from Central Command in Constantinople. Apparently there was a mix up in some paperwork and it wasn�t Byzcath that was supposed to be hi-jacked but Catholic Answers. Do we ever have some egg on our face!

Anyway, we�re really sorry for the inconvenience this has caused. I hope nobody has been suffering from symptoms such as the desire to grow a really long beard (particularly if you�re female), a strange urge to dress like a Bulgarian peasant, or a compulsion to inspect food labels to verify ingredients. These should clear up soon if you have.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Sincerely,
The staff at Orthodox World Domination Enterprises LLC., Ltd. � (a Delaware Corporation)

Dear Rilian,

I'm pulling your security clearance effective immediately. I should have known not to depend on a contractor to keep secrecy. You talk too much!

Disappointedly,
Andrew,
Director of Orthodox Internet Hijacking Projects,
The Most Severe Central Command

But but ... I just ordered a whole new Bulgarian peasant wardrobe an I've been smearing Rogaine on my face in hopes of starting that beard all while assiduously checking food labels even though I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for.

If you stop the project now what will happen to me and others like me???

You can't leave me like this!

Dear John Patrick,

Please remember this is a sharing of thoughts, and we have some very knowledgeable posters who have very strong views on certain theological positions of the Eastern Church.

To come and convert someone to Roman Catholicism or to try to state that Eastern Theology is incorrect, or requires refining will not work. One thing the majority of us have in common is that we base our ideals and beliefs in the fundamental core of Eastern Spirituality, starting with the position of original sin. When you utilize that as your foundation stone, your finished "building" will be different than using a foundation stone of RC original sin. They are both buildings, which is where we share our faith, but they are also made of different materials.

And if the big bad wolf comes and tries to blow down the house that Eastern Theology built, I believe it will stand in the face of that great wind since the foundation is so strong.

Therefore, yes, this is an Eastern orientated forum, with the sharing of many different viewpoints (both western and eastern), but as +St. Theodore says, "the Church is Catholic but the Faith is Orthodox" (my paraphrasing).

I ask that you continue to visit and share your ideas, and also realize that your visiting is in accordance with the wishes of +Blessed John Paul II, as he directed in "Oriental Lumens".

Eastern Catholicism has been the cruel target of both the Roman and Orthodox churches, and as such, you will find great reluctance on the part of many members to modify or accept any additional Latinizations, since many were forced on the people. Granted, many latinizations were voluntarily accepted and adapted by the Eastern Catholics, but this was a direct result of the continuing non-acceptance of the Roman Church, and these wonderful members of the faith community did what they could in order to preserve their most basic core fundamentals.

Like my analogy about the houses above, the Eastern Catholic Church has a core Eastern foundation, but it was only provided throughout history building blocks given by the Roman Church. That is like trying to build with Mega-Blocks and Legos. It just does not work.

Regardless, suffice to say I will pray for you and hope that you are able to continue to learn the True Beauty and Truth that is contained fully within Eastern Theology. The path to attain Theosis is clearly marked (granted, it is also available in the Roman Church but that path is not as clearly visible to me), and the Grace of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ flows strongly within the Eastern Church.

Let us all focus on what we share, in order to be true brothers in Christ.

Peace to you.

In Christ,

Michael

Dear John Patrick,

One of the most difficult things for Roman Catholics to understand about Eastern Catholics is the fact that EC's are spiritually closer (and I believe, identical) to their Orthodox brothers and sisters than to Roman Catholics.

EC's and RC's have the same faith - but in their expression of it they are distinct in EVERY which way. That is not a weakness of the Catholic Church, but its great strength.

We EC's are also struggling, in conjunction with Vatican II and Pope John Paul II et al., to regain what we have lost to Latinization, Latinization that was either imposed on us by RC's or else Latinization that we acquired ourselves in our history.

And in so doing, we oppose every notion that we need to follow Latin Catholic spirituality, theology etc. to somehow "prove" we are Catholics.

One of the respondents on the above forum discussion you cite said that BC's are wary of Orthodox due to bad history between them etc.

That person is correct, but what that person fails to mention, due to ignorance most likely, is the even worse history between EC's and RC's, especially in Eastern Europe.

To give you an indication of this, my family was always EC with several members who were priests and bishops that were sent to Siberia for their loyalty to Rome.

Yet, when I was growing up, my father was always leary of allowing ANY Latin Catholic influences into my spiritual life for fear I would be "Latinized" - which, in his home country, also meant assimilation to a foreign national/cultural identity.

This is why when you talked about "Divine Mercy Sunday" and how it applies to EC's (which is completely wrong and did indeed come across as offensive) and how you even went so far as to say St Therese was a "Byzantine Catholic saint" (which is silly), EC's here reacted quite predictably.

Another thing Roman Catholics fail to understand about EC's is our cultural closeness to the Orthodox.

For example, Ukrainian Catholics share the same culture, language, identity as the Ukrainian Orthodox. This is why our Patriarch Lubomyr and our entire Church is on such good terms with our Orthodox brothers and sisters.

In fact, the link the UGCC has with Rome is now the only tangible link with the RC Church there is.

We UGCC'ers, at the same time, feel no need to have anything else to do with the Latin Catholic Church. Your Novus Ordo liturgy, paraliturgical devotions, crisis with your priests et al. - that has nothing to do with us and we could care less, I'm afraid.

We have our own Particular ecclesial life with communion with the Pope - that we have had to struggle with over our own Particular rights and patriarchate etc. In fact, a big part of the reason why UGCC'ers take issue with the papacy in the last thirty years especially is precisely the reason the female respondent in your forum above gives - BECAUSE Rome is so close to the Russian Orthodox Church and is seen as giving the UGCC with her martyrs for loyalty to Rome a second-class citizenship.

Regrettably, Rome has proven to be no good friend of the UGCC, save for the love many of us have for the person of the Pope. That's where it really ends.

As for the "faith," we do not see it in separation from the spiritual expression of it which is entirely Eastern and "Orthodox" in terms of religious culture.

For Roman Catholics today to see "lacks" in Orthodox faith is to betray a profound ignorance of Orthodoxy, its Apostolic foundations and strict adherence to the ancient canons of the Ecumenical Councils - things Rome has overtime taken upon itself to tamper with and "add to" in accordance with its "development of doctrine" perspective.

The separation between Rome and Orthodoxy that exists today is something Rome can change immediately if it but gave up the things it has unilaterally added to the Creed and the papacy, in the first instance, while returning more fully to the Fathers.

RC theologians have also affirmed as much when they speak to Orthodox in ecumenical settings.

The Orthodox have not "hijacked" this Forum, although we have had Roman Catholics who have tried to do so.

John Vernoski is as Catholic as they get, for your information.

His affirmations of the role of the Pope of Rome in the historical and contemporary life of the Eastern Churches are not only scholarly, serious and balanced - they show a keen insight into the entire matter that is often lacking in RC perspectives that, as a matter of fact, often try to downplay the papal role today.

John Vernoski embodies the ideal of someone who is completely Orthodox Catholic and Eastern while being in full communion with the Pope of Rome and acknowledging his univeral authority in matters of faith and morals.

We should all, including many modern RC's I know, try and approximate the spirituality of John Vernoski in this (and other) ways.

John Vernoski has dedicated his life to OLGS Jesus Christ in the worship of the Liturgy of the Easter Church as a Cantor and educator of others in this rich tradition of "lex orandi, lex credendi." It is John Vernoski who has coined the phrase that he repeats at every turn, "communion with the Pope of Rome is the CROWN of Orthodoxy."

I don't hear that from many of your RC theologians today.

Latin Catholics seem to have lost that sense of "right worship, right faith" in their own spiritual lives, I'm afraid. This is why we have so many Latin Catholics who want to become Eastern Catholic - and Orthodox.

The website you have mentioned above bears the postings of many who are simply ignorant of Eastern Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

Fr. John Hardon, SJ, a great student of other faiths and traditions, always insisted that Catholics devote themselves to the study of the religious traditions of others before they come to comment on them.

I've always noticed that Roman Catholics have much knowledge about Protestantism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Buddhism, Hinduism etc., but are sorely lacking in knowledge about Eastern Catholicism.

And I would venture to say that this is because RC's STILL see us as "Eastern Rites of the Roman Catholic Church."

Any Roman Catholic who understands us this way should at least be open to being educated otherwise.

Or else please do go to the above forum and leave this Forum alone.

It is clear that what the Byzantine Forum, that has the support and esteem of EC and Orthodox, including clergy, is about is beyond their comprehension.

Also, that Orthodox can feel at home with us EC's here is not a "minus" but a "plus" and shows how well the garden of Eastern Christian ecumenism has been watered by John Vernoski.

I say this to you, John Patrick Poland, not in condescending fashion, although that is indeed how I may come across, but as truly someone who himself has failed, on many occasions, to rise to the standard of true Eastern spirituality in communion with Rome established on the Byzantine Forum by John Vernoski.

He has been my mentor and helper on so many occasions, forgiving my indiscretions and instabilities to the breaking point.

That I'm not posting here any longer is simply because I myself have grown too much ashamed of myself and my record here. It is time for me also to just leave and not be a hindrance to the amazing work of Evangelization within the context of Eastern spirituality that goes on in the Byzantine Forum.

Neither of us are worthy of this Forum. We should both just leave it and let it be what it truly is - a great beacon of Light from the East.

Perhaps one day we shall both realize what we have truly missed by not joining more fully with John Vernoski in this ongoing, exciting spiritual endeavour that has truly been inspired in him by the Spirit of Christ!

Christ is Risen!

Truly He is Risen!

Signing off,

Alexander Roman, PhD

I don't know.

I think there might be something to this.

After the responses I got when I posted about my entry into the Carmelite formation program and then an on going PM session I must say there does seem to be a great animosity towards the Latin Church and a greater one to those of us Catholics who might attend a Latin Church rather than a Byzantine one becuase of personal issues and decisions.

An even greater animosity is shown to those of us who have the audacity to follow our vocation into a Latin religious order.

And to compound the issue, its not just at this forum that I have felt this but also at some of our parishes.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice

Dear Alex you posted:

I say:

Shame on you Alex! You know that your contributions have never been a hindrance, but rather a unifying aspect on this forum. Your 'creative' humor and poetic writings have released us from boredom many times... especially your 'teasings' of the administrator...who I, as everyone else respect greatly.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As for you John Poland, I say shame on you too! We know you have a great admiration for the Little Flower, who I adore greatly...and I'm Orthodox. Actually I am reading a book about a very saintly Orthodox monk, who is now a bishop in the Church of Cyprus that says exactly the same thing that was stated by Saint Therese...that one should become a 'little child', and so on and so forth.

That her theology is the same, can not be in doubt...for one must realize that in order to obtain 'divinization', the perfection within oneself must also be the same no matter what denomination one belongs to or what 'rite' they follow.

I do hope you will remain with us. If not, then I wish you well.

Zenovia

Alex,

I truly pray that you will cut yourself some slack and realize that this forum is richer for your presence!

Carole

Wow.... This thread even brought Alex out of his hiatus!!

Zenovia,

Father Maximos' message is very similar to St. Therese... never thought of it that way.

-uc

David, do you really feel that it is animosity you are shown or a sense of loss by people who feel the Latins are picking at every turn? It is only in recent years that the Eastern Church even had the thought of a 'return' to their own Tradition, 50 years ago ECs didn't even recognise their Tradition as authentic and something of value because a handful of Latin bishops didn't allow that Tradition to be cherished. I'm not blaming Latins for the past, but we all know Easterners keep memories in centuries not months or years. Do you really think the ECs are upset that you are going to a Latin order or is it that they wish your talents could be used for their Church?

Oops, you mean I've wasted all my time here?

Of course, it doesn't surprise me that we Orthodox in communion with Orthodoxy got the paperwork mixed up. We just started using paper!

Priest Thomas
Spiritual Advisor, OWDE

"2 Live Andrews,"

I have infiltrated your orgnization and have found that not only are you trying to hijack this forum and Catholic Answers but are actually involved in a plot to put an Onion Dome on top of St. Peter's!

Is outrage!



Seriously, you guys crack me up!!!

I'm still laughing!

P.S. See the topic on who's half-Jewish in Hollywood for the "2 Live Andrews" reference.

Well..... If you would have seen the responses before they were removed or heard the comments directed at me you wouldn't be saying this.

How are the Latins picking? what ever that means, when it is the choice of someone to stay Catholic and attend a Latin parish when they are unable to travel hours to a Byzantine parish. Sometimes it feels like many posters here would rather this person leave the Catholic Church and become Orthodox. They claim that this person is choseing the Latin Church out of convenience but then if they go Orthodox they applaud rather than saying that they 'dox'ed because of conveience.

As for my vocation, it has nothing to do with the Latins. It was my choice in concert with my spiritual director and others who I trust with giving me spiritual advice.

Actually they have taken over the Eastern Christianity forum at Catholic Answers.

Well, if Orthodoxy doesn't work out, it sounds like you might be popular on the singles scene.

Never fear though, it sounds like our "nefarious plot" has moved to another online fora.

Orthodoxy, conquering the world one Catholic message board at a time!

Andrew

Alas, I am already married. Oh well. Enjoy your nefarious plot!

It took me awhile to understand that there was more than one persuasion posting on this site. I did join because I thought it was strictly ByCath site. But I for one would be said if anyone stopped posting because of a difference in orthodox, catholic, eastern, western, whatever. I learn some good stuff by mostly lurking on this site. I've even found out a few things about myself. The differences on this forum are enlighting. So from my side - thanks ..

Yoy!
After all the expense of bivouacing all those Cossacks around Munhall and Mt St. Macrina, our plot to take over the ECC is discovered! Looks like we'll just have to be content with the odd pogrom, or maybe bowling?

Alexandr

[Linked Image]

I can do that, maybe I should join your organization!

Dear Mr. Poland,

I was just reading this thread and enjoying some of the responses when I thought that you might just find them scandalous. With my response I hope to put things into perspective for you and give you food for thought.

You wrote:
"Many of the posters are Orthodox Christians. Others claim to be Eastern Catholics, but have not obtained permission to change Churches from the respective Bishops in their old Church and the new Church. A few have not even gone through any type of Rite of Christian Initiation to leave a Protestant Church and join a Catholic Church."

The Byzantine Forum is an internet �cyber caf� (minus the liquid caffeine) for all people, regardless of faith group. It was created as a place for all kinds of discussions but especially those about Byzantine Christianity. Soon after it was created the focus expanded to include all things Eastern Christian, but the name was already too well established to change at that point. So the fact that the mix of posters includes those who are Orthodox is intentional (and logical). I really don�t see why anyone posting here would have a problem with this, especially since the user agreement clearly registrants agree to clearly states this. If you wish, please clarify your issue here.

Why was it created as such?

�The sin of our separation is very serious: I feel the need to increase our common openness to the Spirit who calls us to conversion, to accept and recognize others with fraternal respect, to make fresh, courageous gestures, able to dispel any temptation to turn back. We feel the need to go beyond the degree of communion we have reached.�

and

�In today's outlook it appears that true union is possible only in total respect for the other's dignity without claiming that the whole array of uses and customs in the Latin Church is more complete or better suited to showing the fullness of correct doctrine; and again, that this union must be preceded by an awareness of communion that permeates the whole Church and is not limited to an agreement among leaders. Today we are conscious - and this has frequently been reasserted - that unity will be achieved how and when the Lord desires, and that it will require the contribution of love's sensitivity and creativity, perhaps even going beyond the forms already tried in history.� (Pope John Paul the Great in Orientale Lumen)

Also:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those 'who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.' With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound 'that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist.'" (from the Catholic Catechism)

I�m not suggesting that we can accomplish any concrete resolution of our sinful separation here on the Forum. I do hold, however, that we can accomplish much by acting as the brethren in Christ that we already are and have been for two millennia. Hospitality is the basis for every relationship.

You wrote:
"I now understand why so many people have jumped down my throat whenever I have posted something that was somehow inconsisted with the beliefs of the Orthodox Church. I now understand why so many posters are strident anti-Roman Catholics. I now understand why so many posters have said they would prefer to be Orthodox Christians than Roman Catholics if the Byzantine Catholic Church was unavailable."

Anyone who posts something incorrect about Catholicism, Orthodoxy or even non-Christian faiths should be corrected. Truth and accuracy are very important. I am sure that you are a decent and well-intentioned person, but it is clear that you have much to learn about Catholicism.

Yes, there are some posters that come across as anti-Roman Catholic, and this is wrong of them. That is because of the long history of people who don�t know us and don�t respect us continually telling us what we need to believe in order to be real Catholics. You come across as if you are yet another person coming to judge us with a measuring stick of your own creation, one that clearly differs greatly than the one used by Rome.

You wrote:
"My Catholic friends - your Forum has been hijacked by the Orthodox.

Finally, I now have learned the place where many people who have left the Byzantine Forum have gone so that they can be part of a Catholic Forum - one of both lungs, Roman and Byzantine. I am going to register now.

My prayers in advance for the administrator who deletes this topic. It is so much easier to stamp out the truth than to address the actual facts. I am guilty of doing the same thing on many occasions."

People do come and do go, as is appropriate for internet forums. From everything I have seen in looking over other forums (including the one you referenced) the number of people who have left The Byzantine Forum for other places because they considered us to not be Catholic enough is probably less than a dozen over the past 8 years. Almost all of them appear to have been Roman Catholics who had only superficial knowledge of Eastern Catholicism.

I certainly agree with your comment that it is easier to stomp out the truth then it is to address the actual facts. Many of your posts here have shown that you have a lot to learn about Catholicism before you can conclude anything about what is and what is not Catholic. If you are interested in truth I highly suggest that you study the Catholic Catechism. If you are interested in learning about the Eastern half of the Catholic Church I recommend starting with the teachings of Pope John Paul the Great about the Christian East. It�s all there on the Vatican website waiting for you.

As you read, keep in mind John Paul�s words (which have become somewhat of an axiom of mine here on the Forum): �Regarding the Orthodox, the only thing missing for full communion is full communion itself.�

I really hope that you are not one of those people who reject the teaching of the Holy Father regarding the Christian East.

Admin

You know, instead of decention as the original poster JP intended - as he has not seen fit to respond. I believe he has brought healing and understanding. Those who seldom post, to those who just hang out all the time, brought to the crux of the matter...

A lot of powerful thoughts - words, wisdom, & humor which shows the love and compassion of God for his people.

THANKS!

I pretty much abandoned the catholic.org forum a long time ago. That was the first Catholic forum I found on the Internet. Sad thing is, there was so much arguing, especially after 9/11, that I couldn't take it anymore.

As for the Catholic Answers message board, there is more arguing there than in a political MB I hang out at.
The nastiest thread is usually the Eastern Christianity thread. Therefore, that one is off limits for now, too.

If someone at catholic.org or catholic.com has negative things to say about this forum - who cares?
Chances are, they made the mistakes I made - talked too much and didn't listen enough.

My missus has been asking questions about the Eastern Church so it was time to come back and make a semi-nuisance of myself - so long as I don't become too much of a pain.

Looking forward to helping out in Uniontown this summer, and signing off for the night.......

I have done nothing but become more educated about the Byzantine Catholic Church I was baptised into than I imagined I would when I began reading this forum, I am always learning something new whenever I come here and if there were no Orthodox here than I probably wouldn`t know just how closely connected Eastern Rite Catholics are to Orthodox. I also realize now how Latinized my particular Byzantine parish was when I was a small child and how over the years the Byzantine Catholic Church is regaining her own traditions. I have been one of those people David referred to who attend a Latin parish for most of my adult life because the drive would be four hours round trip, but since reading this forum I have decided to make the effort at least once in awhile to attend Divine Liturgy. I have used some of the links given by posters here as an aid to practicing Byzantine spirituality at home.
As to other Eastern forums the grass isn`t always greener and on the whole the posters are pretty decent to each other most of the time. John Patrick I hope will at least come back and read posts once in awhile and if he doesn`t I think he`s is missing out.

John Patrick,

I can relate to some of what you are feeling, but I disagree with your conclusions. The evidence just doesn't support them.

For example, please see the thread I started back in March and which is entitled "Are We Embarrassed to Be Catholic?" https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003719;p=1 Examine the record, its substance, its language and its tone. Note the absence of personal attacks. Note the well reasoned replies. Note the real compassion that was shown to me in my lack of understanding, and the patience, and nevertheless the firmness of the responses. This is not evidence of people trying to "jump down" another�s' "throat." And, it is not evidence of Orthodox trying to "hijack" an Eastern Catholic forum. Instead, the undeniable conclusion from the evidence of that thread is that this is a forum of Eastern Christians, who are clearly and dearly committed to Eastern Christianity, who are willing to explain their faith with patience as well as passion, and who are often genuinely Eastern Catholic: genuinely trying to be Orthodox and Catholic at the same time.

For another, more recent example, see the fine post by Michael (Hesychios) at https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003828.

There are many other examples I could cite.

But for a final piece of evidence, examine objectively the posts on *this* thread. Note the absence of vituperative replies. Note instead the compassion and forbearance which infuse these replies. People here are not trying to jump down your throat. They *are* committed to their religion, and they defend it ably and passionately. But they also explain their religion with reason and compassion. They are not attacking you. They are showing you welcome and real hospitality.

I have learned A LOT here since I first started coming to this forum. I have made an a# of myself at times, and (many) other times I have made gaffs due to honest ignorance. Like you, perhaps, and like many here, I often find it challenging to find the balance between being loyal to the bishop of Rome and being loyal to the Orthodox heritage: both of which comprise the genius of Eastern Catholicism. Indeed, I would suggest that striking that balance is the single most pressing issue facing the Eastern Catholic Churches these days.

As for your remarks about the moderators and administrators, I must wholeheartedly disagree. This forum is open to *all* who are interested in Eastern Christianity: Eastern Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. The fact that we have moderators from both parts of Eastern Christianity is a blessing and a strength. And, I might add, they have behaved with admirable professionalism and compassion.

In sum, this forum is not against the pope. It is not "jumping down your throat." It is not "hijacked" by the Orthodox. The people here are Eastern Christians. Most of them are Eastern Catholics, but many are Eastern Orthodox, and some are from other religions but are very interested in Eastern Christianity: and *all* are welcome here. Yes, sometimes tempers flare, but corrections are made and apologies are given -- and accepted. In my experience --and I think the record bears this out-- this forum is genuinely compassionate, genuinely friendly, and genuinely welcoming of *everyone* who is interested in Eastern Christianity in both its forms: Eastern Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

-- John

Oh come on ! Dr. Alex, you are one of the best contributors at this Forum. You have personally (and patiently) educated me on many specific matters and on Eastern Christianity overall. I hold your opinions in high respect, and I'm not the only one here who does so. Take a break if you need one, but please come back soon.

-- John

We're not Catholic?

Admit it, Michael, you ARE now Orthodox! :p

Amado

I go away of the weekend to attend a wedding and miss all the action.

I was very surprised to see JPP posting here. John is starting to remind me of the great opera singer of the early 20th century Dame Nelli Melba who apart from having a great voice was renouned for the number of last nights and comebacks to the stage.

John gave the impression to me of pushing his version of devotion to St Theresa on others and was not interested in knowing of proper practices in the Byzantine Church. After a while I wondered what he was doing here at all. John gave me the impression he was firmly of the opinion our liturgy was just another way of 'saying mass' with which he good mix in his private version of his favourite Latin devotions.

John has also posted some highly offensive comments in regard to the ceremonies of the Holy Fire which had to be removed. He has no understanding of the links that bind those Catholics and Orthodox who love the Byzantine Church and all that goes with it. John has done his Nelli Melba yet again, this time has come back to the forum to have yet another go at the Orthodox.

I wish you well John were ever you go to but please dont rush back here on my account.

ICXC
NIKA

Reminds me of another poster who departs more often than that 300-pound soprano wastes away from TB in Traviata. But the poor thing always manages to resurrect for the next performance. Go figure...

Dear Pavel you said:

I say:

I heard from someone that John did not believe the Holy Fire was real and that it was a fake. I do wish the post was not removed, because it takes away our ability to have a serious discussion about it. People should be allowed to have an open discussion about a topic that might or might not be offensive to others. :rolleyes: Of course I don't know exactly how offensive it was.

I have read years ago that the RCC believes that the Holy Fire truly existed until the time of the schism, and from then on it was a deception. From my understanding, the section with the tomb is examined to make sure that no matches or lighter exists. The same holds true of the person of the Patriarch and all who enter with him.

Of course one must wonder how the Holy Fire could have come about before the existance of matches...but then again, I heard that there were times when it took many hours of prayers to appear. I guess they were rubbing sticks together. A little joke there!

Actually, the Holy Fire does not only appear on the tomb, but many find that their candles are lit automatically. I guess it happens to those that doubt the truth of it's existance.

Okay, let's say it does exist, even if someone doesn't believe it. I was told that the first 20 minutes it has different properties than actual fire. One can pass their hand through it without being burned. Also there is a great deal of friction with the Armenians and Coptics, who believe they too should have a right to pass the light to the crowds. Now the question arises, if they are so passionately upset about the situation, and they too enter the cave with the Jerusalem Patriach, why don't they reveal the deception...that is of course if it is a deception?

The truth is though, that posters should not have their posts removed simply because they are expressing an opinion contrary to the opinion of some on the forum. :rolleyes:

Zenovia

I wonder who that could be? lol

maybe, me?

Zenovia the Holy Fire was ridiculed and not presented as a subject for discussion. I am not Orthodox and made a complaint. Discussion is one thing rudeness is another. Now he is saying you and other Orthodox have take over the forum. It is just too silly.

ICXC
NIKA

oh no! does this mean it's over, with the fat lady singing and all?

Much Love,
Jonn

She will be back in all her glory - all 300 pounds of it - for the next performance, I am sure of it. She will probably write 50 posts explaining why she is back.

No she wont! She will say her piece and with much flourish will yet again depart. Only to come back and do it yet again.

ICXC
NIKA

Ahhh! Sounds like you know the lady from past experience.

Dear Pavel you said:

I say:

Actually, I can see where someone might get that opinion. At times posts have been removed more frequently if their remarks were insulting to Orthodox rather than to Latin or Byzantine Catholics. What's wrong with showing John Patarick Poland a little charity and Christian love. Besides, I have seen some very nasty posts on this forum that were not removed... nor were the posters mocked. A little objectivity here would help. :rolleyes:

John Patrick Poland is a highly devout Catholic...and I can't help but feel from the reactions, that some posters have some issues with the Latin Church.

As for me, he is welcome anytime...besides, I love and pray to The Little Flower often, so leave him alone.

Zenovia

JPP,

I just found this thread, and all I have to say is that if the Orthodox have no right to be here, then neither do Roman Catholics.

I for one find the Orthodox presence on this board to be a blessing. If one has a problem with it, there's no shortage of Roman Catholic message boards one can participate in instead.

To quote my former boss, a self-described "Florida redneck": Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.