www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church

Joe T:

Re the map, apparently all Eastern Catholic jurisdictions were included in the Catholic category while the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches which responded to the Survey were:

(1) Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America;
(2) American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek
Catholic Church;
(3) Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of
North America;
(4) Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the
East, North American Dioceses;
(5) Armenian Apostolic Church/Catholicossate of
Cilicia;
(6) Armenian Apostolic Church/Catholicossate of
Etchmiadzin;
(7) Bulgarian Orthodox Diocese of the USA;
(8) Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America;
(9) Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Vasiloupulis;
(10) Holy Orthodox Church in North America;
(11) Macedonian Orthodox Church: American Diocese;
(12) Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox
Church in North America;
(13) Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, American
Diocese of the;
(14) OCA: Albanian Orthodox Archdiocese;
(15) OCA: Bulgarian Diocese;
(16) OCA: Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America;
(17) OCA: Territorial Dioceses;
(18) Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America and
Canada;
(19) Serbian Orthodox Church in the USA;
(20) Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch; and
(21) Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA.

AmdG

Dear Cantor Joe,

A very good observation and issue that you raise!

I'm certainly confused about all the Orthodox jurisdictions, although I think a good way of keeping the good separate from the questionable is to ignore the independent jurisdictions that are not part of World Orthodoxy.

As for unity, I think that if the USA revoked tax exempt status for all these "jurisdictions" there would be unity in a hurry . . .

I was once offered ordination to be a missionary bishop of one of these jurisdictions. No seminary training necessary, I was told, I already knew too much . . .

I don't know. Would you pass me for ordination, Cantor?

Alex

Dear Cantor Joe,

I have a passing familiarity with the independent Orthodox church movement which is uncanonical of course.

At their "Synod of Baltimore" in 1985, they canonized St Aftimios Ofiesh and another Albanian fellow, both of whom were married bishops, the former getting married while still a bishop.

One of the groups involved also canonized all the Templar martyrs killed in France beginning with Jacques de Molay and Geoffroi de Chancey - the Shroud of Turin remains with the latter's family to this day.

Another independent group on the west coast canonized none other than Rene Villatte as the "Father of Independent Orthodoxy."

They then proceeded to glorify Martin Luther King Jr., Dorothy Day, Oscar Romero and some others as saints.

FOCUS or the Federation of Orthodox Catholics United Sacramentally canonized Maria Skobtsova or "St Maria of Paris" and have her icon on their website.

A Celtic Orthodox group in the U.S. also canonized as saints Pelagius himself as "St Morgan of Wales" and "St John Scotus" of the ninth century (not the later Blessed John Duns Scotus Eriugena).

Alex

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the US (South Bound Brook) belongs to the SCOBA and is therefore canonically accepted. It is formally under the omophorion of Constantinople. The issue of "canonicity" with the Orthodox in general is a Pandora's box. Just ask any of the ROCOR or Greek Old Calendarist faithful.

"Canonical" or not, the sacrifices of blesseds Vasyl Lipkivsky, Yuriy Yaroshevsky (assasinated by an MP fanatic), Mykola Boretsky and many other bishops of the UAOC who died at the hands of the Soviets instead of collaborating with the MP are truly heroic. They are truly Orthodox in my book.

Are we all talking about the same church - the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church of North & South America Sobornopravna? If "Orthodoxy" don't accept them as canonical, then should I include them on my map? How about the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Vasiloupulis that was mentioned in the above list? I want to know if I am getting into marginal or independent churches. There are a few other fringe jurisdictions of only a few communities, several monasteries, and a handful of bishops. What do I make of these? Help!

In addition to the list given above, I also plan to include the Ethiopian and Eritrean jurisdictions.

Joe:

I'd say keep it simple: all the Churches in union with Constantinople; the ROCOR and Greek Old Calendarists in union with ROCOR* (Synod of Met. Cyprian--but they only have 5 or so parishes in the US anyway); the Ukrainian Orthodox Church--Kyiv Patriarchate parishes in the USA (www.kievpatriarch.org [kievpatriarch.org] I think), the Oriental Orthodox Churches in communion with one another (Copts, Armenians, Syrians, Malankara, Ethiopians, Eritreans), and the Assyrian Church of the East.

On the Catholic side, make sure to throw in the Polish National Catholic Church since they are 100% recognized as valid.

* The Old Calendarist Synod of Met. Cyprian is in full communion with ROCOR, and is recognized as valid by all other Orthodox, only in a state of seclusion. Other Old Calendrist Churches are not so universally recognized.

The Greek Diocese of Vassiloupolis is the organization of the former (now deposed for sex with teens and boys) "Metropolitan" Pangratios. He resigned and the other bishops of that Church no longer accept him, but they are not accepted by other Orthodox. I know a very decent Bishop in that Church, but can't reconcile their ecclesiology with that which I know to be of the Universal Church.

The Uk. Autocephelous Church may have valid orders, may not; let's not worry about them right now. The Kyiv Patriarchate on the other hand has from the Catholic POV totally valid orders, only it is in schism from Moscow.

In Christ,

anastasios

Dear Tasos,

How are your studies coming along, Big Guy?

I'm fascinated by your discussion of the Kyiv Patriarchate!

Are the orders valid from the RC point of view?

If they are not recognized as canonical by Orthodoxy - and they are not - doesn't that mean they aren't canonical period?

I don't know these things - I'm not in a seminary.

God bless,

Alex