www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall What the Crusades Were Really Like

Now this is interesting. Maybe those Crusaders weren't so evil after all.

Crusades [zenit.org]

And slavery in the USA was blessed by God, because it made the poor heathen Africans into Christians. Ask the Greeks and those massacred in Constaninople how noble and innocent the Crusaders were.

Well, the above is a good point. So far the author is only tackling issues of Muslims and Crusader states in Muslim areas. Let's see what he will have to say about 1204 and Constantinople.

Zenit is publishing these in installments. This was Part 1. On Monday, the next segment will be "The Crusades and Today." I have no idea how many parts they plan on posting, but will read as many as possible. IIRC, I think the Pope excommunicated the leaders responsible for Constantinople.

I can't wait for the remaining bits...but am inclined to disregard the author's contentions on several points...but ISTM that there is a vast difference between what the Crusades were billed as, and what took place, as we all know.

Gaudior, who thinks some of the arguments a trifle unsupported, and would enjoy references to primary sources

Here's an interesting and positive take on the Crusades from an Eastern perspective http://www.armenianhighland.com/christendom/chronicle706.html

Dear Moe,

I believe it was the Fourth Crusade you are referring to. Somehow or other, as a Greek, I always wondered why the Third Crusade was overlooked.

If I recall correctly, there was treachery by the then Byzantine Emporor, as well as a massacre of the Latins in Constantinople.

I think we Orthodox have a slight 'martyr' complex, and love to lick our wounds. Let's just say, there were cultural conflicts then, (in a slightly more ferocious manner), as there still is today.

Zenobia

The question of "were the Crusades good or bad" falls flat upon the definition of "crusade". A good historical survey of the word - restricted to military actions called/approved by an ecclesiastical official, for an at least ostensibly religious purpose, authorized by least a bishop, from say 1000-1600 AD - will find dozens, maybe even hundreds of such enterprises.

Some were successes. Some were miserable failures. Some did not even bother acheiving the original objective and caused infamous historical effects (the Fourth Crusade). Most of them were not much better than your average ancient/medieval war- as the author notes, they were bloody affairs. Massacre of the residents of a resisting city was commonplace. Mass rapes, plundering, etc. was the norm.

And, if you begin your survey at around 750 and restrict it to authorized Christian actions against Muslim states conducted under religious undertones, the campaigns of Emperor Heraclius [amazon.com] certainly could fit your definition. And the Western Church doesn't have a monopoly on "repression" (ask the "Monophysites", the Bogomils and the Old Believers).

Anyway, the point is that any Church that has to work with the government invariably gets dragged into political life, and every once in a while calls a given war legitimate. Frequently these wars go spin way out of control. A country's got to defend itself but it needs to be sober and careful to minimize "collateral damage" as they say today. Such things were definitely not on many medieval armies' agendae.......

Sorry, this thread as a whole touched up a nerve. And AFAIC the article made several very good points.

I think Christians, as a whole, should be more concerned about worldwide terrorism that is perpetrated in the name of Allah. This is our present danger throughout the middle east and Balkan states.

JoeS

This is part 2 which came out today.

crusades part 2 [zenit.org]

Thanks for the link!

I found this to be interesting

I need to get the book and read it. It's really hard to evaluate a book based on a couple of excerpts. I am getting the feeling that there may be lots of faulty information about the Crusades that falls into the, "everybody knows that" category. I see that Amazon has the book.