www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall A Blessed Flowery Sunday (Kvitku Nedilju)!

i have a simple suggestion for the celebration of Easter.

Let the Jews decide. By that I mean ... Let Easter fall on the first Sunday after the passover Thursday.

Since Our Lord celebrated Passover we would not have the problem of having Easter before Passover.

Jews know how to calculate Passover So it might be easier to follow them.

Dear Little Green Coat:

If I'm not mistaken, this indeed has been one of the ideas tossed around in some informal discussions between East and West as to establishing a "universal" date for Pascha. Other ideas were to just put it on the 2nd or 3rd Sunday of April according to the Gregorian Calendar and forget the business with the equinox and the full moon and whatever.

Personally, I think your suggestion - the first Sunday after Passover - would make the most sence theologically and practically. Theologically, becasue, well, it was Passover the Saturday after Great and Holy Friday. Practically, becasue reconing the Christian Pascha based upon Passover would not be dependant upon eiether the Juilan or the Gregorian calendars.

You up for starting a movement?


Yours,

kl

I 2nd the motion to the weekend following the Jewish Passover, it just makes sense, thats the problem.

James

Dear Friends,

And I second the motion of celebrating Easter with the Orthodox Churches.

It is the original Easter calculation and would also make a great ecumenical statement.

There was a group of Christians that were called "Quartodecimans" as they celebrated Easter on the date of Passover itself which is always the 14th of Nisan on the Hebrew Calendar.

So if Passover fell on a Wednesday, then that was when the Great Fast would end for these Christians and Easter would be celebrated.

St Polycarp of Smyrna and others, I believe, celebrated Easter this way.

Pope St Victor I wanted to excommunicate this group, but others, like St Irenaeus of Lyons, urged him not to since there were great Saints who followed this Easter calculation.

The Celtic Christians also followed a different Eastern calculation until the Synod of Whitby condemned it.

In Britain, it was usual to see a King who was a Roman Catholic celebrate Easter while his Celtic Christian Queen was still fasting.

Very much like the situation with Eastern Catholics on two calendars today!

(My parish also celebrates Easter twice . . .)

Alex

Dear Friends,

As I posted before, I understand how the Western Church came up with April 20 as the date of Easter. I understand the full moon and the equinox as measurable astronomical events. I also understand that the Jewish calculation of Passover has been changed somehow, but I thought that we are not supposed to worry about that. The First Council said that we should not tie ourselves to the Jewish calculation of Passover.

Could someone explain to me how the date of April 27 was calculated for the Orthodox celebration this year? Does the difference have to do with when Sunday is deemed to begin?

Or is it that they always wait until after the 8 days of the Jewish Passover are ended? Or am I missing something else altogether?

While celebrating on the Orthodox date would be a good Ecumenical gesture, which method of calculation is more true to the way the Fathers of the Council understood in their time? Clearly language and science have both changed over the last 1700 years, affecting the calendar and affecting our understanding of the Earth, the sun, the moon and our ability to measure the cosmos.

Maybe we need to return to the cycle of 19 years, not worrying about timing the astronomical movements, and leaving that to the government scientists with their "leap seconds" and atomic clocks. Maybe we should render unto Caesar the numbering of the days of the month and use those dates to communicate with the people, since that is what they live with daily.

The Pope has the easiest part of this. I have read that each New Year's Day, he publicly proclaims the dates of the feasts at St. Peter's. He does follow the established rules, but we know tht Popes have changed rules in the past, and seem to get followed by most people in the Western Church when they do so.

Have a Blessed Holy Week!!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear John,

It is my understanding that the Council determined that the celebration of Our Lord's resurrection not be celebrated with the Jews. It had to be after. That is what I recall about that.

I am not a Jew but it is my understanding that Passover is an 8 day event. This year it started on April 16th and should finish on April 24th, the first Sunday after that is the 27th. The point of not celebrating before the Passover is complete seems to be one that the Orthodox keep rigidly. The West (and those who follow that system of computing Pascha) seem to igonore it. This is yet another reason for the difference some years in the date.

I am doing it from memory please chime in if incorrect. Perhaps reading the Aleppo statment will help it was cited in an earlier thread.

As for
I have very mixed feelings on that. (I am plagiarizing from a sermonette a friend gave once.) It was God who hung the sun and moon and stars. 1) That does not seem to be the realm of Caesar except that perhaps he possesses the best scientific equipment. 2) Isn't it an offense to God to ignore what we see clearly? I mean if we can look up and observe the heavens, why ignore them? (Why then do we have to be fixed to imprecise science from pagan times is my point there) 3) Look at Psalm 103/104:19 "He appointed the moon for seasons; the sun knows its going down" (NKJV) Again, God established the seasons, not Caesar.

I have read that the empiricism of this world is to be doubted since the world is fallen. Perhaps that enters into play, I don't know. The difference in computations is yet another tragedy that needs to be healed. As much as it represents more precise science I wonder why the calendar reform had to take place unilaterally in the first place. Only grief seems to follow.

Just some thoughts.

Again for those on their way to Golgotha this week, I with them a prayerful journey with the Lord.

Tony

Yes Passover is a eight day celebration.

But you are again making it more complicated.

Remember the KISS principle.

I was under the impression that the Resurrection happened during Passover. Therefore I go back to my original proposal the Sunday after the first Thursday evening of Passover.

Since no one can say for certain which calculation God wants us to use. Let us be flexible.

Maybe if we all adopted a more tolerant view unity on earth would be achieved.

Question for those who are adamant on when we celebrate Easter--when you get to heaven and the Lord said your calculation was wrong would you argue with him and leave heaven?

Dear Little Green Coat,

Maybe if we all read each others' posts more carefully we would not arrive at inaccurate conclusions such as the one above. I am not proposing anything, you are. I am attempting to describe the current situation. You are proposing something new. Do you see the difference?

Tony

Dear Little Green Coat,

Please go to this link [jacwell.org] . Then read down, you will find the following. The bold is for emphasis. Again, I am not proposing anything new as you are. That has been done by others more qualified than us.

Feel free to tell others KISS, not me. Thank you.

I wish you a feaceful rest of the season.

Tony

Tony, if you look over the links that I gave on this point, including the text of Archbishop Peter, it seems that a strong case can be made (as Archibshop Peter did) tat this interpretation is erroneous. Indeed, the suggestion of LGC is exactly he antithesis of the Nicea idea, "not with the Jews".

I don't have opinions on how the date of Easter ought to be calculated. Although I would be hesitant to innovatively abandon the use of astronomical measurements.

I would agree with St. John Chrysostom that it is of greater concern that we endeavor to celebrate together than we get the claculation right. I just point out that some ideas or arguments put forth regarding the canons are pretty clearly inconsistent with available historical records. The idea that a certain way has become Tradition, is a wholly respectable one, IMO.

The Jewish calendar, by the way, is not so simple. Primarily a lunar calendar, it requires the addition of an occasional leap month (like the Chinese)to keep synch with the solar year and seasons. This synchrony is important to ensure that the "first fruits" would be available at Passover. After dispersal from Palestine, this approach for determining leap months had to be abandoned. It was not until the 4th century that the Jewish method of calculating Passover was fixed to the solar year.

http://www.rigal.freeserve.co.uk/jewish/calendar/jcalendar2.htm

I suspect that we have gotten a bit beyond the reality here. We are involving all sorts of calendars (Alleluja, Hallmark!!!) as well as all sorts of religious perceptions.

First: the celebration of Pascha can be held at any time the Church determines it should be celebrated. (This is a bishops' decision.) To make the point: what day is today? Is it Wednesday or Saturday? That's a human thing; God is outside the calendar -- the HUMAN tool.

Second: should the calculation/determination of the Pachal celebration be dependent upon the Jewish Passover calendar. Since the Jewish community has had to make changes to its lunar calendar to remedy mathematical errors, should the Christian community be obligated to incorporate contemporary Jewish calculations of Passover to determine our Pascha?

Third: what impedes the Christian community from determining its calendar based upon the realities of our visible world, i.e., a full moon, or the vernal equinox?

I personally think that the basic guidance: first Sunday after the first full moon of spring works quite well. And anyone, at any place can make the determination of when we celebrate Pascha. (Send a memo to Hallmark, please!)


However, there is the question that the equinox can vary from earthly location to earthly location. So, let's decide that this calculation should take place in Jerusalem (for the Bible oriented) or in Rome, Paris, New York, Los Angeles, Honolulu, Hong Kong, Bombay (errr....Mumbai), or Ur of the Chaldees.

So, we can either let each geographic church make its determination (sort of like Western and Eastern today) based upon some particular geophysical reality, or agree to determine the date based upon one specific location (I personally like Bethlehem!!) and then make that the benchmark.

But let's not force our community to rely upon extraneous calendars or varied interpretations of the equinox; let's just set the parameters and live by them.

Blessings!

Dear djs,

Most of the information I have read concerning this "with the Jews" indeed says that what now seems to be the practice developed from a misunderstanding of that term. I do not dispute this nor have I (which is why I wrote "it is my understanding" and "I am doing it from memory please chime in if incorrect.") The simple fact seems to be that this is the current practice as far as I can tell. If that is not correct please jump in again.

I am not proposing any new formula (as someone has said I am) nor am I defending an erroneous understanding of the text (I don't know if you are saying that I am), I am merely trying to describe what happens. If you think I am defending a misunderstanding of "with the Jews" scour my posts and show me where you think I am doing this.

I think that the authority of the Church must be followed. Since now there are two systems used in various placed by Catholics and Orthodox alike (and others too), the faithful of those churches have to follow their respective churches. I had high hopes that from the Aleppo event a solution would be manifest, sadly that did not happen.

What have I said about the Jewish calendar?

If I have misunderstood you please forgive me and point out how as I have tried.

Tony

As long as the Holy Fire descends on the Holy Tomb on Pascha and as long as the miracle continues, I'll stick to the Orthodox reckoning.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.