www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall A Blessed Flowery Sunday (Kvitku Nedilju)!

May everyone on this Forum have a blessed Flowery Sunday as we celebrate Christ's triumphal entry into Jerusalem. "O Son of God, Who sat upon a colt, save us who sing to You: Alleluia!"

Alex, (sound of a willow hitting on the back) It wasn't I who struck you, it was the willow who struck you!

Ung-Certez

Ung, in Poland, The Great Feast of the Entry of our Lord Jesus Christ into Jerusalem is known as "Niedziela Palmowa," but it was even better known as "Niedziela Kwietna" (floral Sunday) because pussywillows, often embellished with evergreens and/or boxwood, or rod-type wildflower bouquets were blessed in churches instead of palms, which were not available. "Bazie" or "Kotki" are the pussy willow branches cut several weeks ahead and placed in water so they sprout their furry, little buds by Palm Sunday. According to one folk custom, swallowing one of the buds was said to ensure health all year.

Parishioners processed with the palms through the streets around the parish, celebrating the triumphant entry of Jesus into Jerusalem. Many Polish regions craft a special floral stick in lieu of or in addition to the palms. These are also blessed and carried in procession like palms.

If you have never been in a Polish RC church on a Good Friday, you will be surprised to see something that resembles our "plaschanitza" or "epitaphios." A life-size figure of Christ lying in His tomb in churches is visited by the faithful from the time of the Good Friday Liturgy throughout Holy Saturday until the Easter Vigil. The tableaux includes flowers, candles, figures of angels standing watch, three crosses, etc. Each parish strives to come up with the most artistically and religiously evocative arrangement in which the Blessed Sacrament in a monstrance, draped in a filmy veil, is prominently displayed on the tomb.

OrthodoxEast

The description of the pussywillows strikes a memory at my grandparents house that was long forgotten.

Pokoj,

James

Dear friends:

If I am not mistaken, Palm Sunday is until 20 april, next week.

Snoopy ,

Depends on the Calendar -

New Calendar was certainly yesterday and I have my Palm Cross to prove it.

Anhelyna

Anhelyna (Slave of Love)<<New Calendar was certainly yesterday and I have my Palm Cross to prove it.>>

Actually, Anhelyna, to be more accurate, "Gregorian" Calendar Palm Sunday was yesterday. This coming Sunday, Palm Sunday will be observed by both "Old" (i.e., Julian) and "Revised Julian" (i.e., Old Calendar Paschalion, but Gregorian Calendar for "fixed" feasts) Calendarists. Count me among the latter.

So, to make a long calendar short, I won't get my mix of blessed palms and willows until April 20.

OrthodoxEast

Dear Ung-Certez,

Thank you!

I"ll remember that this coming Sunday!

Actually, the pussy-willows were favoured NOT because palm fronds weren't available.

The pussy-willow was venerated by pagan Slavs long before Christianity and was one of those traditions that received a Christian interpretation.

The bursting of the bud in the pussy-willow represented the Resurrection of Christ and so this explains its use in East Slavic lands especially.

One may make three-Bar Crosses from pussy-willow branches that are shorn of their buds and then glued together for placement in one's icon corner until Palm Sunday next.

A great Slavic cultural tradition that celebrates Christ's Resurrection!

Alex

Oh now this is just not fair - not at all.

It has taken me long enough to sort out New and Old being one of those curious Latin folk but here we have the combination
.

And I am about to go to Lourdes where the Ukies are very definitely New and here in the UK they are Old.

Is it any wonder that from time to time I scratch my head ,start running in decreasing circles, scream and shout saying " Will I ever understand?"

Anhelyna :p

Dear Anhelyna,

The point is that the Easter calculation has really nothing to do with the Old or New Calendars - it is an independent thing.

This is why one may follow the Gregorian or New Calendar and yet celebrate Easter on the same date as those following the Old Calendar.

In fact, those following the New Calendar but who use the traditional Easter calculation, defined by the First Ecumenical Council, are the "Reformed Julian Calendarists."

All those Orthodox who follow the New Calendar still adhere to the old calculation for Pascha, as to do otherwise would be to break a canonical rule established by an Ecumenical Council.

I've never understood why Eastern Catholics following the New Calendar don't adhere to the traditional Paschal calculation.

Alex

Dear Friends,

I guess I will never understand why some things are ahead of their time. Or why some things are always behind the times?

Doesn't the calculation of Easter start from the time of the Vernal Equinox? Is not that time the same, but fall on a different date, depending on whether the Julian or Gregorian calendar is used?
March 20th, Gregorian, would be March 7th, Julian. The date is different, but the equinox would happen on that day.

I understand the Western calculation of Easter, the first Sunday after the first full moon after the equinox. Could someone please explain the Eastern? Especially since they have a common date in some years.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear John,

Actually, Brendan the Theologian is back with us, I've seen a post from him.

He once explained all this and perhaps we can ask him to do so once again for all our benefit.

He knows everything!

Alex

Dear Alex,

Not quite.

The difference in the East/West Easter calculation is due more than anything else to the disputed date of the equinox (March 21). I posted at length about this recently, perhaps you or another can find that. It was substantiated with lots of links.

The (autonomous) Finnish Orthodox Church follows the new calendar and the new calendar (Western if you prefer) Paschalion. There are other places where this is happening as well.

Also, some of the Oriental Orthodox Churches follow the new calendar Paschalion.

To all those who are journeying with our Lord to His saving Passion this week, I wish you a good journey to a bright Pascha!

Tony

Dear Tony,

Then how can someone following the "Reformed Julian Calendar" celebrate the same Easter Date as those on the Old Calendar?

Also, isn't celebrating the New paschal date breaking a cardinal rule (no pun intended) established by an Ecumenical Council?

Alex

Alex,

Look at this thread again.

And, to which "cardinal rule established by an Ecumenical Council" do you refer?

Tony

Alex,

In an earlier post today you said: So to what do you refer when you say "the traditional Easter calculation?" Since you said in the same post: Old calendar certainly seems to equal "the traditional Easter calculation" in that post.

Tony

Dear Tony,

What do I know?

Was I ever even anywhere near St Vladimir's Seminary?

I'm asking you to fill in my woeful ignorance.

You are right.

But I'm still seeking guidance.

Once you straighten me out on the calendar/paschal date thing, I can proceed with other personal issues . . .

I'll read those URL's you provided.

Did not the first Ecumenical Council establish the method of calculating Pascha? So you are saying it truly does depend on which calendar one follows.

Alex

Dear Alex,

I am just trying to make sense of your own post.

The simple fact is that some years the civil date of Easter coincides on both calculations. You can take my word for it or research it on your own; the big issue with the differing methods of calculation is the date of the equinox.

Tony

Dear Tony,

O.K., O.K., I get the picture!

"Traditional Easter" for me is the Orthodox Pascha, the same Pascha that has been calculated the same way for centuries.

Was it not also an issue that the Pascha must come AFTER the celebration of the Jewish Passover?

Alex

Yes, that is my understanding of it

I would probably support the New Calendar with the Western Paschalion, Orthodox in Mexico for some years celebrated Pascha according to the western date.

But, as no Orthodox Church in USA has done this, it would make more sense for BC to celebrate according to the Orthodox paschal date. Don't you think?

Dear Snoopy,

Yes, I do!

The Orthodox Paschal date even for Ukrainian Catholics is always referred to as "Our Easter" or "Our Holidays."

Even when there are Ukrainians who celebrate according to the New Calendar and the Western Easter date, others still refer to that date as the "Latin Holidays."

I wonder why those Eastern Catholic Churches that adopt the New Calendar cannot, along with the Orthodox, keep to the Orthodox Paschal date?

Why is that date an issue with the Orthodox, by the way?

Alex

Dear All:

It's probably a "cart before the horse" thing, but I always thought that the date for Pascha was originally calculated by reference to the equinox BECAUSE that would insure that it always came after Passover.

Here's one for thought: by temporally coming only a week "after" Gregorian Pascha, the Julian Pascha will come "before" it. April 27th on Gregorian currently translates into April 14th on the Julian. 14th comes before the 20th. :p

Yours,

kl

all I can say at this point is

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh

My head hurts :p

where is DavidB's little man hitting his head off the brick wall - I need it 'cos it's nice when you stop

Alex and Tony, in 1949 when the then Pittsburgh Ruthenian Exarchate changed to the Gregorian calendar (the majority of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic parishes voted for the change), they also agreed to celebrate Pascha according to the Western Church formula. People (including my father)think it is a calendar issue when it really isn't. I don't think this is a big issue, not as big as restoring married clergy.

Ung-Certez

From some earlier posts:

Astronomical observations were used to determine the vernal equinox both before and after the first ecumencial council. This historical fact, together with the fact that the date used at that time for the vernal equinox was not that of the original Julian calendar (March 25), rather it was the actual (within the accuracy of measurement) date of the equinox (March 21 at that time, according to the Alexandrians, March 18 according to the Romans), makes a strong case that in their decree on the calculation of the date of Easter, the council was not selecting a particular calendar date to be called the "vernal equinox", but in fact, when using the words "vernal equinox", they curiously enough actually meant "vernal equinox".

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/Npnf2-14-29.htm#P1403_326349
https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001719;p=2

The morphing of the Nicean "not with the Jews" into "not before the Jews" is a much later (12th century) development. The meaning of the phrase at Nicea is amply elucidated in the Emperor's letter which survives form the council:

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/Npnf2-14-28.htm#P1395_321799

Here are some links to writings by Orthodox on this subject:
http://www.jacwell.org/Archbishop%20Peter/The_Date_of_Pascha_and_the_Council_of_Nicea.htm
http://www.antiochian.org/midwest/Articles/Holy_Week_and_Pascha/The_Date_of_Pascha.htm
http://members.aol.com/johnd3/ONE/DateofPascha0593.html
http://www.otsamerica.org/news.html

https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000875;p=4#000047

Yes Alex, a council did prescribe the date for celebrating Easter. Those who use the "western calculation" are following the prescription of that council (give or take disputes over when "Sunday" begins); those who do not are not. They are following a tradition that developed in the aftermath of the council, but which, as the calendar got out of synch with celestial phenomena such as the vernal equinox, failed to comply with the prescription of the council.

Dear Anhelyna,

May I borrow some of that aspirin of yours?

It's times like these that make me very happy I'm a simple God-loving layman!

All I know is that we are all celebrating Pascha.

You guys who celebrate it this week are doing it in your way.

We who celebrate it next week are doing it . . .His way!

Happy Pascha!

Alex

Of course you may have some - would a bottle of 25 tabs be OK ? Not too much I hope ?

As to
We who celebrate it next week are doing it . . .His way!

Hmmm - you are on dangerous ground there

Thanks for the good wishes for Pascha - I appreciate them

Anhelyna

Dear Alex:

Please, I beg you, don't encourage me to get into the calendar thing. Twice a year I tell myself to sit still. (Although I would like to see a little sensitivity on this issue from those who choose the liturgucal quotes that appear at the top of the main page of this forum.)

Yours,

kl

Dear KL,

Just joshin' Big Guy!

I really should never have waded into this quagmire to begin with.

It reminds me of the bishop who commented on a lecture he had heard on the "Mystery of the Holy Trinity."

He said it was all a "bigger mystery" after the lecture . . .

A happy Pascha whenever!

Alex

I'm coning out of lurking mode to wish all those who are celebrating this week, a wonderful Great and Holy Week and a Glorious Pascha!


Peace,
Brian

i have a simple suggestion for the celebration of Easter.

Let the Jews decide. By that I mean ... Let Easter fall on the first Sunday after the passover Thursday.

Since Our Lord celebrated Passover we would not have the problem of having Easter before Passover.

Jews know how to calculate Passover So it might be easier to follow them.

Dear Little Green Coat:

If I'm not mistaken, this indeed has been one of the ideas tossed around in some informal discussions between East and West as to establishing a "universal" date for Pascha. Other ideas were to just put it on the 2nd or 3rd Sunday of April according to the Gregorian Calendar and forget the business with the equinox and the full moon and whatever.

Personally, I think your suggestion - the first Sunday after Passover - would make the most sence theologically and practically. Theologically, becasue, well, it was Passover the Saturday after Great and Holy Friday. Practically, becasue reconing the Christian Pascha based upon Passover would not be dependant upon eiether the Juilan or the Gregorian calendars.

You up for starting a movement?


Yours,

kl

I 2nd the motion to the weekend following the Jewish Passover, it just makes sense, thats the problem.

James

Dear Friends,

And I second the motion of celebrating Easter with the Orthodox Churches.

It is the original Easter calculation and would also make a great ecumenical statement.

There was a group of Christians that were called "Quartodecimans" as they celebrated Easter on the date of Passover itself which is always the 14th of Nisan on the Hebrew Calendar.

So if Passover fell on a Wednesday, then that was when the Great Fast would end for these Christians and Easter would be celebrated.

St Polycarp of Smyrna and others, I believe, celebrated Easter this way.

Pope St Victor I wanted to excommunicate this group, but others, like St Irenaeus of Lyons, urged him not to since there were great Saints who followed this Easter calculation.

The Celtic Christians also followed a different Eastern calculation until the Synod of Whitby condemned it.

In Britain, it was usual to see a King who was a Roman Catholic celebrate Easter while his Celtic Christian Queen was still fasting.

Very much like the situation with Eastern Catholics on two calendars today!

(My parish also celebrates Easter twice . . .)

Alex

Dear Friends,

As I posted before, I understand how the Western Church came up with April 20 as the date of Easter. I understand the full moon and the equinox as measurable astronomical events. I also understand that the Jewish calculation of Passover has been changed somehow, but I thought that we are not supposed to worry about that. The First Council said that we should not tie ourselves to the Jewish calculation of Passover.

Could someone explain to me how the date of April 27 was calculated for the Orthodox celebration this year? Does the difference have to do with when Sunday is deemed to begin?

Or is it that they always wait until after the 8 days of the Jewish Passover are ended? Or am I missing something else altogether?

While celebrating on the Orthodox date would be a good Ecumenical gesture, which method of calculation is more true to the way the Fathers of the Council understood in their time? Clearly language and science have both changed over the last 1700 years, affecting the calendar and affecting our understanding of the Earth, the sun, the moon and our ability to measure the cosmos.

Maybe we need to return to the cycle of 19 years, not worrying about timing the astronomical movements, and leaving that to the government scientists with their "leap seconds" and atomic clocks. Maybe we should render unto Caesar the numbering of the days of the month and use those dates to communicate with the people, since that is what they live with daily.

The Pope has the easiest part of this. I have read that each New Year's Day, he publicly proclaims the dates of the feasts at St. Peter's. He does follow the established rules, but we know tht Popes have changed rules in the past, and seem to get followed by most people in the Western Church when they do so.

Have a Blessed Holy Week!!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear John,

It is my understanding that the Council determined that the celebration of Our Lord's resurrection not be celebrated with the Jews. It had to be after. That is what I recall about that.

I am not a Jew but it is my understanding that Passover is an 8 day event. This year it started on April 16th and should finish on April 24th, the first Sunday after that is the 27th. The point of not celebrating before the Passover is complete seems to be one that the Orthodox keep rigidly. The West (and those who follow that system of computing Pascha) seem to igonore it. This is yet another reason for the difference some years in the date.

I am doing it from memory please chime in if incorrect. Perhaps reading the Aleppo statment will help it was cited in an earlier thread.

As for
I have very mixed feelings on that. (I am plagiarizing from a sermonette a friend gave once.) It was God who hung the sun and moon and stars. 1) That does not seem to be the realm of Caesar except that perhaps he possesses the best scientific equipment. 2) Isn't it an offense to God to ignore what we see clearly? I mean if we can look up and observe the heavens, why ignore them? (Why then do we have to be fixed to imprecise science from pagan times is my point there) 3) Look at Psalm 103/104:19 "He appointed the moon for seasons; the sun knows its going down" (NKJV) Again, God established the seasons, not Caesar.

I have read that the empiricism of this world is to be doubted since the world is fallen. Perhaps that enters into play, I don't know. The difference in computations is yet another tragedy that needs to be healed. As much as it represents more precise science I wonder why the calendar reform had to take place unilaterally in the first place. Only grief seems to follow.

Just some thoughts.

Again for those on their way to Golgotha this week, I with them a prayerful journey with the Lord.

Tony

Yes Passover is a eight day celebration.

But you are again making it more complicated.

Remember the KISS principle.

I was under the impression that the Resurrection happened during Passover. Therefore I go back to my original proposal the Sunday after the first Thursday evening of Passover.

Since no one can say for certain which calculation God wants us to use. Let us be flexible.

Maybe if we all adopted a more tolerant view unity on earth would be achieved.

Question for those who are adamant on when we celebrate Easter--when you get to heaven and the Lord said your calculation was wrong would you argue with him and leave heaven?

Dear Little Green Coat,

Maybe if we all read each others' posts more carefully we would not arrive at inaccurate conclusions such as the one above. I am not proposing anything, you are. I am attempting to describe the current situation. You are proposing something new. Do you see the difference?

Tony

Dear Little Green Coat,

Please go to this link [jacwell.org] . Then read down, you will find the following. The bold is for emphasis. Again, I am not proposing anything new as you are. That has been done by others more qualified than us.

Feel free to tell others KISS, not me. Thank you.

I wish you a feaceful rest of the season.

Tony

Tony, if you look over the links that I gave on this point, including the text of Archbishop Peter, it seems that a strong case can be made (as Archibshop Peter did) tat this interpretation is erroneous. Indeed, the suggestion of LGC is exactly he antithesis of the Nicea idea, "not with the Jews".

I don't have opinions on how the date of Easter ought to be calculated. Although I would be hesitant to innovatively abandon the use of astronomical measurements.

I would agree with St. John Chrysostom that it is of greater concern that we endeavor to celebrate together than we get the claculation right. I just point out that some ideas or arguments put forth regarding the canons are pretty clearly inconsistent with available historical records. The idea that a certain way has become Tradition, is a wholly respectable one, IMO.

The Jewish calendar, by the way, is not so simple. Primarily a lunar calendar, it requires the addition of an occasional leap month (like the Chinese)to keep synch with the solar year and seasons. This synchrony is important to ensure that the "first fruits" would be available at Passover. After dispersal from Palestine, this approach for determining leap months had to be abandoned. It was not until the 4th century that the Jewish method of calculating Passover was fixed to the solar year.

http://www.rigal.freeserve.co.uk/jewish/calendar/jcalendar2.htm

I suspect that we have gotten a bit beyond the reality here. We are involving all sorts of calendars (Alleluja, Hallmark!!!) as well as all sorts of religious perceptions.

First: the celebration of Pascha can be held at any time the Church determines it should be celebrated. (This is a bishops' decision.) To make the point: what day is today? Is it Wednesday or Saturday? That's a human thing; God is outside the calendar -- the HUMAN tool.

Second: should the calculation/determination of the Pachal celebration be dependent upon the Jewish Passover calendar. Since the Jewish community has had to make changes to its lunar calendar to remedy mathematical errors, should the Christian community be obligated to incorporate contemporary Jewish calculations of Passover to determine our Pascha?

Third: what impedes the Christian community from determining its calendar based upon the realities of our visible world, i.e., a full moon, or the vernal equinox?

I personally think that the basic guidance: first Sunday after the first full moon of spring works quite well. And anyone, at any place can make the determination of when we celebrate Pascha. (Send a memo to Hallmark, please!)


However, there is the question that the equinox can vary from earthly location to earthly location. So, let's decide that this calculation should take place in Jerusalem (for the Bible oriented) or in Rome, Paris, New York, Los Angeles, Honolulu, Hong Kong, Bombay (errr....Mumbai), or Ur of the Chaldees.

So, we can either let each geographic church make its determination (sort of like Western and Eastern today) based upon some particular geophysical reality, or agree to determine the date based upon one specific location (I personally like Bethlehem!!) and then make that the benchmark.

But let's not force our community to rely upon extraneous calendars or varied interpretations of the equinox; let's just set the parameters and live by them.

Blessings!

Dear djs,

Most of the information I have read concerning this "with the Jews" indeed says that what now seems to be the practice developed from a misunderstanding of that term. I do not dispute this nor have I (which is why I wrote "it is my understanding" and "I am doing it from memory please chime in if incorrect.") The simple fact seems to be that this is the current practice as far as I can tell. If that is not correct please jump in again.

I am not proposing any new formula (as someone has said I am) nor am I defending an erroneous understanding of the text (I don't know if you are saying that I am), I am merely trying to describe what happens. If you think I am defending a misunderstanding of "with the Jews" scour my posts and show me where you think I am doing this.

I think that the authority of the Church must be followed. Since now there are two systems used in various placed by Catholics and Orthodox alike (and others too), the faithful of those churches have to follow their respective churches. I had high hopes that from the Aleppo event a solution would be manifest, sadly that did not happen.

What have I said about the Jewish calendar?

If I have misunderstood you please forgive me and point out how as I have tried.

Tony

As long as the Holy Fire descends on the Holy Tomb on Pascha and as long as the miracle continues, I'll stick to the Orthodox reckoning.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.