www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall A Blessed Flowery Sunday (Kvitku Nedilju)!

Dear Tony,

What do I know?

Was I ever even anywhere near St Vladimir's Seminary?

I'm asking you to fill in my woeful ignorance.

You are right.

But I'm still seeking guidance.

Once you straighten me out on the calendar/paschal date thing, I can proceed with other personal issues . . .

I'll read those URL's you provided.

Did not the first Ecumenical Council establish the method of calculating Pascha? So you are saying it truly does depend on which calendar one follows.

Alex

Dear Alex,

I am just trying to make sense of your own post.

The simple fact is that some years the civil date of Easter coincides on both calculations. You can take my word for it or research it on your own; the big issue with the differing methods of calculation is the date of the equinox.

Tony

Dear Tony,

O.K., O.K., I get the picture!

"Traditional Easter" for me is the Orthodox Pascha, the same Pascha that has been calculated the same way for centuries.

Was it not also an issue that the Pascha must come AFTER the celebration of the Jewish Passover?

Alex

Yes, that is my understanding of it

I would probably support the New Calendar with the Western Paschalion, Orthodox in Mexico for some years celebrated Pascha according to the western date.

But, as no Orthodox Church in USA has done this, it would make more sense for BC to celebrate according to the Orthodox paschal date. Don't you think?

Dear Snoopy,

Yes, I do!

The Orthodox Paschal date even for Ukrainian Catholics is always referred to as "Our Easter" or "Our Holidays."

Even when there are Ukrainians who celebrate according to the New Calendar and the Western Easter date, others still refer to that date as the "Latin Holidays."

I wonder why those Eastern Catholic Churches that adopt the New Calendar cannot, along with the Orthodox, keep to the Orthodox Paschal date?

Why is that date an issue with the Orthodox, by the way?

Alex

Dear All:

It's probably a "cart before the horse" thing, but I always thought that the date for Pascha was originally calculated by reference to the equinox BECAUSE that would insure that it always came after Passover.

Here's one for thought: by temporally coming only a week "after" Gregorian Pascha, the Julian Pascha will come "before" it. April 27th on Gregorian currently translates into April 14th on the Julian. 14th comes before the 20th. :p

Yours,

kl

all I can say at this point is

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh

My head hurts :p

where is DavidB's little man hitting his head off the brick wall - I need it 'cos it's nice when you stop

Alex and Tony, in 1949 when the then Pittsburgh Ruthenian Exarchate changed to the Gregorian calendar (the majority of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic parishes voted for the change), they also agreed to celebrate Pascha according to the Western Church formula. People (including my father)think it is a calendar issue when it really isn't. I don't think this is a big issue, not as big as restoring married clergy.

Ung-Certez

From some earlier posts:

Astronomical observations were used to determine the vernal equinox both before and after the first ecumencial council. This historical fact, together with the fact that the date used at that time for the vernal equinox was not that of the original Julian calendar (March 25), rather it was the actual (within the accuracy of measurement) date of the equinox (March 21 at that time, according to the Alexandrians, March 18 according to the Romans), makes a strong case that in their decree on the calculation of the date of Easter, the council was not selecting a particular calendar date to be called the "vernal equinox", but in fact, when using the words "vernal equinox", they curiously enough actually meant "vernal equinox".

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/Npnf2-14-29.htm#P1403_326349
https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001719;p=2

The morphing of the Nicean "not with the Jews" into "not before the Jews" is a much later (12th century) development. The meaning of the phrase at Nicea is amply elucidated in the Emperor's letter which survives form the council:

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/Npnf2-14-28.htm#P1395_321799

Here are some links to writings by Orthodox on this subject:
http://www.jacwell.org/Archbishop%20Peter/The_Date_of_Pascha_and_the_Council_of_Nicea.htm
http://www.antiochian.org/midwest/Articles/Holy_Week_and_Pascha/The_Date_of_Pascha.htm
http://members.aol.com/johnd3/ONE/DateofPascha0593.html
http://www.otsamerica.org/news.html

https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000875;p=4#000047

Yes Alex, a council did prescribe the date for celebrating Easter. Those who use the "western calculation" are following the prescription of that council (give or take disputes over when "Sunday" begins); those who do not are not. They are following a tradition that developed in the aftermath of the council, but which, as the calendar got out of synch with celestial phenomena such as the vernal equinox, failed to comply with the prescription of the council.

Dear Anhelyna,

May I borrow some of that aspirin of yours?

It's times like these that make me very happy I'm a simple God-loving layman!

All I know is that we are all celebrating Pascha.

You guys who celebrate it this week are doing it in your way.

We who celebrate it next week are doing it . . .His way!

Happy Pascha!

Alex

Of course you may have some - would a bottle of 25 tabs be OK ? Not too much I hope ?

As to
We who celebrate it next week are doing it . . .His way!

Hmmm - you are on dangerous ground there

Thanks for the good wishes for Pascha - I appreciate them

Anhelyna

Dear Alex:

Please, I beg you, don't encourage me to get into the calendar thing. Twice a year I tell myself to sit still. (Although I would like to see a little sensitivity on this issue from those who choose the liturgucal quotes that appear at the top of the main page of this forum.)

Yours,

kl

Dear KL,

Just joshin' Big Guy!

I really should never have waded into this quagmire to begin with.

It reminds me of the bishop who commented on a lecture he had heard on the "Mystery of the Holy Trinity."

He said it was all a "bigger mystery" after the lecture . . .

A happy Pascha whenever!

Alex

I'm coning out of lurking mode to wish all those who are celebrating this week, a wonderful Great and Holy Week and a Glorious Pascha!


Peace,
Brian