www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The Cardinal Ratzinger fanclub forum

Hey board, this one might be more for the Occidentals than the Orientals but I'll post it here regardless. Sorry if its out of place Administrator, just tell me and I'll refrain from using the Byzantine forum in this manner in the future.

I'm sure, thanks to the media coverage of the conclave as of late, that amongst the members of byzcath.org there is an awareness that one member of the Roman Curia has a fanclub: His Eminence Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Unfortunately though this knowledge is not limited to Catholics and it seems thanks to the widespread news reports of 'the Cardinal with a fanclub' many from without the Church are now privvy to this information.

Recently, the forum there has been swamped by secularists, fundamentalists and other individuals whose sole ambition it seems is to annoy, irritate and berate members of the forum. Some have resorted to direct attacks on the person of not only His Eminence Cardinal Ratzinger but also the late great Pope John Paul II. Some of the comments, particularly in the case of the latter, have been to my mind unreasonably distasteful.

I am all for freedom of speech. Nonetheless, I think when individuals seek out a forum to join knowing its members are faithful to the magisterium simply for the task of making attacks upon the Church and its hierarchs that something must be done to drown them out. Therefore I am appealing to anyone on the Byzantine forum who can be bothered to sign up to http://p217.ezboard.com/btheratzingerforum and defend the Church

Dera Myles,

Please change the name of this thread at once!

"Pope Benedict XVI!"

Alex

OK, now that we know that the good Cardinal has been chosen to be the Pope of Rome, does anyone have any comments about how this will affect the relationship between the churches East - West?

Michael

Dear Michael:

IMHO, we should not see any changes to Rome's Ostpolitik under the new Pope Benedict XVI.

Yours,

hal

This remark attributed to then Cardinal Ratzinger is quoted on the net here and there. I didn't find the original source.

Benedict XVI is a child of the ressourcement. In his book spirit of the liturgy he speaks about many subjects using even Eastern sources like Evdokimov and the 1551 Council of 100 Canons to discuss iconography etc. He is probably the most knowledgeable theologian in the Church. He has a great respect for the Church past and present, east and west and has always thought a return to the model of Church government of the first 1,000 years was ideal. He even thinks local Bishops should be more conspicious and sees the Church as drowning in beureacracy. Read his ecclesiological primer 'Called to Communion'.

He is painted by his enemies as a conservative right wing German simply because He doesnt allow people to break with tradition and doesnt allow heresy to be taught in schools and seminaries. However, all the people who have ever interviewed him have called him mild-mannered, even shy and some have even called him 'saintly'. Anybody who reads his works can see he is not the dragon that his detractors wish he were. He is the same man as he was when he sat next to Karl Rahner at Vatican II. But whereas Rahner and co. effectively nullified the cross with their wrong teachings on Grace and the Church Benedict XVI refused to do this.

If he is allowed Benedict XVI will implement his ecclesiological vision, which will see a smaller role for Bishops conferences--which he thinks obscures the role of the Bishop as pastor of their own flock--amongst other things. He will demand theological Orthodoxy as always but he will use that German systematisers mind to overhaul a lot of the beaurecracy in the Church. I'm certain. I believe if Bartholomew I is as open to Benedict XVI as he was to John Paul the Great things will only get better.

Dear Friends,

I see the new Pope as a strong guiding hand that continues in the tradition of Pope John Paul II.

The new Pope is even more of an administrator who has a definite aptitude for administration - something St John Paul the Great, by his own admission, did not.

I like the idea that the "Italian strangle-hold" on the Papacy seems to have been broken for good.

I think he will be very sympathetic to the Orthodox and to Eastern Catholics as well in his own way.

And I'm always for a strongly traditional leader.

Alex

Well, Alex, I guess there won't be a Ukrainian Pope this time around. I know you were hoping for one, but I think this Pope will be a good one. You had mentioned in another thread how the Ruthenians might react to a Ukrainian Pope. See, I actually do read the posts on this Forum.

"Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium. When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the occasion of the Pope's visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one also presides in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first millennium. Rome need not ask for more. Reunion could take place in this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that development, while, on the other hand, the West would recognize the Church of the East as orthodox and legitimate in the form she has always had.�

Ratzinger, Joseph: PRINCIPLES OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, Ignatius, 1988, page 199-200

See what happens when people actually read his works? Thank you for that Deacon Lance. It illustrates as I've said along. That all the horror stories about Pope Benedict XVI being a Vatican curial centraliser come out of the mouths of disgruntled liberals who want to Protestantise the Church and reduce our Creed from a firm 'I believe' to a list of 'I opine's' that shift on the sands of public opinon. I hope that the Cardinal can put into action the various things he has recommended to the Church Universal in his numerous theological works.

PS) Administrator can you change the name of this thread please as Dr Roman suggested?

Myles, I see the new Pope as a strong proponent of the liturgy. I have read his works, and his opinions are as clear as crystal. He seems to have a great love and respect for the liturgy. I don't see him tolerating silliness.

What a crowd of trolls there are on that Cardinal Ratzinger forum! There is a message at the top of the board that if you don't follow the rules you risk expulsion, but they flaunt these rules and flame our new Pope, and each other as well. And there doesn't seem to be a way to report these people.

It's such a breath of fresh air to come back to the Byzantine Forum, where people actually follow the rules, and the Administrator actually does something about people who don't!

Tammy

Myles,

While I agree that the disruption of any board by trolls, etc., is despicable, I have to say that I can't get excited about this. I find the idea of a "Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club" (pre-Conclave) or a "Pope Benedict XVI Fan Club" (post-Conclave) to be a bit in the nature of a personality cult that somehow is dissonant from my preception of what should surround such events and figures.

There are vast numbers of Catholic forums on the net, ranging across the continuum of theological and liturgical thought, certainly more than enough for folks to populate with their thoughts on the Pope and the man. It seems to me that setting up a board specific to him was asking for the type of foolishness that is being perpetrated there - the appropriateness of doing so aside.

Just my two cents worth.

Many years,

Neil

Neil, normally I wouldnt say this, but take back your two cents and keep them firmly in your wallet thank you.

Perhaps Benedict XVI does have a cult of personality. Who knows? Certainly I love the guy. Maybe you'd have to bare the silliness of what has been going on in the Latin Church to understand how happy we are when someone actually speaks the truth boldly in spite of public pressure. As it is I dont believe the Melkite's have the post-conciliar problems that we do therefore I wouldnt expect you to know how we feel.

However, I did expect slighty more empathy than that. I also know there are quite a lot of John Paul the Great tribute sites in the works, I wonder if you think that those websites if their owners have a forum should be bombed too? The website was/is a place where people can come find out things about Benedict XVI, good books of his, the congregation for the doctrine of the faith etc.etc. And the forum is a place where they can discuss these things. I dont think the webster was pushing his luck creating a forum for visitors of the site to talk to one another.

But alas maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'll feel differently when the radical feminists start posting on John Paul II tribute sites about how he was a sexist. After all to make a John Paul website and put a forum there is almost asking for it, right Neil?

Myles,

In my opinion, yes.

Many years,

Neil

Good morning Myles.

If you normally wouldn`t make that comment, then perhaps you should not have. Neil`s reply to you was very kind. You were quite rude in making your comment and you owe Neil an apology and not only for that comment, but for those which followed which seem to marginalize Neil`s comments since he belongs to a different sui iuris Church. If you took the time to read a sample of Neil`s posts, I don`t believe that you would have made those comments.

In a subsequent post, referring to Pope Benedict XVI, you wrote: "...he will use that German systematisers mind ...."

I must take exception to that comment. I dislike using stereotypes, whether meant for good or ill. I realize that you were attemtping to pay a compliment to our new pope, but please try to avoid stereotypes. They are a double-edged sword and what one may intend to be a complement can be read as an insult by another.

I wish you peace.

Charles

Its all good. I just became a forum moderator with the nice title 'Designated Doctrinal Enforcer'. Lets see if I can lay the smack down on heresy as well as His Holiness did when he was prefect for the CDF.

Good morning Neil.

Please keep on contributing your two cents worth. Your comments are worth much more than that. I shall miss your comments during next month`s visit to Rome. I am not taking a laptop since I want to concentrate on being a pilgrim-tourist. My one concession will be to check my e-mail periodically to make sure that all`s well with Mom.

Many years,

Charles

First of all Charles. I was blunt in what I said and for the form of my words I apologise but I will retain the substance. I dont think its right that people should invade the personal space of others. I would not go to a pro-abortion website and post hateful comments so I dont think its right that non-Catholics come to a Catholic website and do the reverse. I was hoping for agreement, I got none, such is life.

It has nothing to do with Neil's particular church membership. It has to do with how grateful Latin Catholics are for a man as orthodox as Benedict XVI. Most of us cant even get close to the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church from our local priests. Thank heavens I have a good parish priest. However, I have encountered some other clerics who in the name and 'spirit of Vatican II' have proceded to teach me errors that have contributed to spiritual difficulties for me and many others. I think I am right in saying that the Melkites have not suffered from this problem and thus right to maintain that Neil doesnt appreciate how much we all love Ratzinger, even to the point of a personality cult as he said.

Benedict XVI is well known as a great systematic theologian and a good administrator. This is one case where the stereotype is the truth. The German efficiency of this great man will benefit the Church Universal tremendously, especially in cutting through layers of red tape.

Finally, I didnt tell Neil not to post. I told him I didnt value his opinion on this particular matter. I dont see how from my comments you included all of Neil's volumous posts. However, if I gave that impression once again I apologise.

Myles, I did not criticize the bluntness of your comments about the other website. What I did criticize was the tone of your comments to Neil. Your post began with a message to Neil about the value of his comments. They were not simply blunt, they were rude. If you did not appreciate his comment, you could have simply stated that - as I have done on other threads - but your choice of words was, IMHO, trite and rude.

And, if you were to read a sample of Neil`s previous comments, you would know that he has a good handle on the happenings in the Roman Patriarchate, including the role played by and the contributions made by Pope Benedict XVI.

How you could read into my comments that I implied that you told Neil not to post mystifies me!

As for stereotypes, there you go again: "The German efficiency ...."

Concerning personality cults, IMHO they are intrinsically foreign to Christianity.

I wish you peace.

Charles

Charles,

I recall a certain great personality who would undoubtedly verify your perspective. In fact about "personality cults" he wrote in the midst of his great ministry:

For what it's worth (two cents or otherwise), I perceive that Our Holy Father, Benedict XVI, Pope of Rome would wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment of the Apostle Paul, "Follow me, as I follow Christ."

(Charles, please remember this humble deacon and his family in your prayers during your sojourn to Rome.)

Myles,

I think you'll need to travel miles before you can boast, "Lets see if I can lay the smack down on heresy as well as His Holiness did when he was prefect for the CDF." Your caricature of the Holy Father's ministry at the CDF is shortsighted at best. No doubt the censures issued by the CDF against various theologians were instances of the last resort. And even through this all, it was in most instances that the censured or "silenced" theologians who made the action by the CDF public with fanfare.

Good morning Father Deacon John.

I shall indeed remember you and your family during my visit to Rome. My itinerary is fluid, but definitely includes St. Peter`s Basilica, St. Paul outside the Walls, and S. Giovanni in Laterano. I also hope to visit Santa Sofia, Patriarch Lubomyr`s titular church.

I will also be taking a day trip to Assisi. You and your family will be remembered in my prayers in each church that I visit.

Peace,

Charles

Ok, ok. For all my short sightedness and self-aggrandising comments, for my rudeness and lack of tact, for my blindness to the feelings of others and my seemingly cartoonish and sterotypical depictions that show a profound deadness to ethno-national sensibilities I truly and sincerely apologise. Hoping sincerely through the Sacred Heart of Jesus by the Immaculate Heart of Mary to be converted into being a simple soul of God given humilty.

Again, I'm sorry

Then, PLEASE, Myles, go over to that forum and lay down some "smack" on the trolls and flamers over there, instead of spending your time coming here and taking insult where none was intended! What Neil said to you was far nicer than the crap - excuse the french - that I see posted over there by non-Catholics and dissidents, and nobody seems to be disciplining them.

Tammy

Once again I offer my sincerest and humblest apologies to Neil and anyone else I have offended today on the Byzantine board. I came here after being there and brought my ill feeling with me. I was completely out of order to Neil and now I am in a better state of mind I am not surprised so many people have pointed that out.

Again my sincerest apologies to you Neil, your initial post and polite response were truly kind especially in light of how I addressed you. I do not deserve forgiveness, yet I ask for it anyway, rest assured I shall try my earnest to refrain from being so sneidy in future. As I have said it was out of turn, completely out of turn, and I can do nothing more than humble myself before you and beg you to accept my sincerest apologies.

I am sorry Neil and to everyone else for souring the tone of this thread.

Please forgive me
Myles

Myles,

It is very easy to let stuff get under your skin, and when you have to read a lot of hate mail/posts it kind of puts up your defenses. Glad to see you've deleted some of those flaming posts on the Ratzinger Fan Club. Now they can't get under anyone's skin! They definitely needed an "enforcer" over there and I'm glad they've got you now.

Tammy

Hmm, well I just hope whatever good I do there can go some way to atoning for my wrongs here. Once again I apologise.

Myles wrote:

Recently, the forum there has been swamped by secularists, fundamentalists and other individuals whose sole ambition it seems is to annoy, irritate and berate members of the forum. Some have resorted to direct attacks on the person of not only His Eminence Cardinal Ratzinger but also the late great Pope John Paul II. Some of the comments, particularly in the case of the latter, have been to my mind unreasonably distasteful.

Pope Benedict XVI must be just what God ordered or satan would not be so busy attacking. As with the Dessert Father who was so harrased by spirits they were driving him bonkers. 'He said to them, look at the town over there, there is only one spirit lying on the fence watching the town. Go bother them.'

'The spirit replied why, they are doing just what we want them to do.'

So the pope must really begetting ready to ruffle some feathers the good way and all for the glory of God.

Pani Rose

I heard that Cardinal Ratzinger was a frequent reader of this Byzantine Forum! In fact, he may have had a psuedonym here. We must watch, to see who now has less time for posting, it may have been him.

It has to be admitted that I never spotted the Cleric with a red Paper Bag on his head while I was in Rome.

Could he have been hiding from me ?

Myles,

Apology accepted. I have to admit that your response may have bothered others more than it did me, but my skin is rather thickened by many years in on-line forums and I've had much worse said to me. When my dander is up, folks generally know it (ask around - no one has ever accused me of timidity).

Not to revive the issue, but I want to explain a couple of things. I think the idea of the forum is laudable (though I disagree with its premise), but I do think it offers a ready target and that was part of my point. The other (non-Eastern) Catholic forums that I peruse are seeing their own share of what you describe, but not to the same extent, because the discussion is less focused and, as a result, the trolling and flaming is diluted. I wish you success in dealing with it, but I think you're looking at a long road to hoe - although the negativity and targeting may be tempered once the newness of His Holiness' papacy wears off.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you for your forgiveness, though I merit it not, I accept it joyfully. I was out of order and I'm glad the other forum members pointed it out so that I can amend my behaviour in future.

God Bless

I have seen enough here to know I should not visit the Fan Club forum and get annoyed; thanks for the heads-up.
On Benedict XVI and the liturgy, he wrote some time ago that it was a big mistake to turn the priest around in the Roman rite, that he should face the altar when praying to God. He also said it would be confusing to impose yet another change on the Church. Let's hope that he now sees the time is right; that one step would curb many of the problems with the Roman liturgy: it is just too tempting for many priests to over-emote or play game show host when facing the audience, er, congregation. Personally, it would make the Roman Mass easier to bear for me and other Eastern Catholics when we must attend it when traveling....
Daniel, long a Ratzinger fan

Daniel

I could not agree more.