www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Shots fired in Turkish Protest against the Pope

I just saw this on CNN.

Short fired in Turkish Pope Protest [edition.cnn.com]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Although the Turkish government previously outlined the extent (and tightness?) of security for the Pope's visit, this random(?) and isolated (?) event sents shivers down the spine.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=47260

First, no amount of security will prevent a deranged or determined or suicidal individual or group from attempting harm to the Pope.

Second, why did the Tukish government lay out the security plan ahead of the papal visit? It should have been kept a secret in the first place! Vatican planners are now possibly quite busy changing or altering the Pope's published itinerary.

Third, we know that the Pope's visit is now considered by Turkey only as an official visit of a "foreign Head of State," BUT the invitation was issued by the Turkish government headed by the Prime Minister. For him to excuse himself from meeting the Pope is, indeed, "insulting!" And, then, of course, he can relieve himself from any responsibility if anything untoward happens during the duration of the Pope's visit.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=47412

Then, Turkey denies its Prime Minister intended to "snub" the Pope!

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=7968

Now, I fear more and more for Pope Benedict's safety in Turkey!

Amado

IMO, this is insane!

It's a shame this is happening. Pretty soon the Islamic Extreamest are going to try to force the Pope to stop teaching Catholocism, or that Jesus was God and not just a prophet, or that...well..you get the gist.

IMO, I don't think the pope should have appolized in the first place. I happen to agree with the quote the Pope used. The pope has a right to teach and defend the faith. Remember, some of them wanted the pope to convert!?!

I guess I just get so sick of it all. They don't like that it was said they spread their faith by the sword. But, gee, what the heck are they doing.

Mary,
who's had just about enough

I think it is good that the government officials technically invited him but aren't meeting with him. It means they unofficially recognize his status as a head of a religion and are allowing him to come under those terms, even if not on paper. Now he can act like the pope while he is there instead of putting up some false pretense of being a secular leader. So...prayers in the Hagia Sophia anyone?

See, just like PollyAnna said: you can always find something positive if you look for it.

In agreeing to the above posts, I think it should be an opportune time to unveil the bankruptcy of Turkey's ploy.

Turkey and its government know fully well that the Holy See is the only non-secular member of the United Nations as a permanent observer.

The Holy See is and refers to the Catholic Church as the "body politic" represented in the family of nations and the Vatican City-State is just a "creation" by juridical fiction to afford the Catholic Church/Holy See a defined territory as a prerequisite for a physically existing "State" as defined under international law and comity.

Although the Holy See/the Catholic Church has been in existence over two millenia prior to the emergence of all the U.N. member-States, it is recognized juridically and internationally by all nations as a "sovereign State" and by bilateral treaty previously when Italy ceded and recognized as sovereign territories those under the governance of the Pope as head of the Holy See/the Catholic Church.

Other Islamic States (and all the nations of the world) grant such recognition to the Pope as foremost the head of the Catholic Church, a religious aggrupation, and, therefore, he visits countries as a religious figure representing the Catholic Church, if not "the Church!"

Turkey is bent on making the Pope's visit "political" given the pendency of its application for accession to the European Union, to which Pope Benedict, when he was still Cardinal, personally expressed the latter's non-qualification for membership. Since then, Pope Benedict, as Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Church, has reiterated the neutral stance of the Holy See in regard to Turkey's application for EU accession.

Turkey's antics simply cannot fool those steeped in the rules of diplomacy!

Amado

Vatican City State is not a fiction - as the Italian government will gladly assure you. This state is internationally recognized (I don't have the present figures for the number of countries who recognize and exchange diplomats with Vatican City, but the number is impressive); it has territory and all the other attributes of any sovereign state. It remained neutral in World War II, providing a place of refuge for Allied diplomats who had not left Italy in time - and a place of refuge for a remarkably high number of Jews. Bona Fide citizens and/or employees of the Vatican are entitled to make purchases at the Vatican, thus avoiding Italian taxes, to the annoyance of the Italian government.

When the Pope goes anywhere in Italy outside Vatican territory, the Pope's travel schedule is cleared with the Italian government (which to the best of my knowledge has never refused or impeded the Pope's travel).

Obviously Vatican City is one of the smallest independent countries in the world. It is not the very smallest (any guesses as to which country is the smallest?).

Fr. Serge

Father, Bless....

Don't tell me it's the "Soverign Military Order of Malta" ... however, there's a good case to argue against them being recognized as a sovereign nation.

Fr. Serge,

Everything I've read, and I just checked again, has brought back the .2 sq miles of Vatican City as the world's smallest county. Some argue that the Vatican's Knights of Malta actually hold the title as they did once have their own country within the country within the country. I just looked this up as I assumed that the Vatican did not recognize it as a separate country, but read that the Vatican and a few other RC countries do recognize it, but the general world community does not. Is this what you referred to?

Fr. Serge:

I did not say that the Vatican City-State is "fiction". It is as real as you and me but it was "created" by "legal fiction," i.e. it was endowed with a "juridical personality" to meet the requirements of sovereignty prelude to U.N. membership.

The Vatican City-State, which is the defined territory, should be distinguished from the "corporal" body of this "sovereign nation," which is the "Holy See," aka the Catholic Church.

The "nation" or "country" that has diplomatic relations with 176 secular countries of the world is the "Holy See" and not the "Vatican City-State."

Amado

Just look up the membership of the United Nations where you can find all the States of the world recognized as such.

Thus, the Holy See (not the Vatican City-State nor just Vatican City) is the smallest "State" in terms of territory and population and the only non-secular member of the U.N.

The "Sovereign Military Order of Malta" has not been recognized as a "sovereign State" by the United Nations.

By definition, a "sovereign State" must have citizens/people, within a defined territory, and a government (executive, legislative, and judicial). The SMOM lacks a defined territory and probably a government as classically defined.

Amado

The World Factbook of the CIA, lists the name of the sovereign state as The Holy See (State of the Vatican City).

Foar an "official" state visit, Turkey seems to acting very funny regarding the papal visit. Somehow, I personally feel that the above incident has something to do with the offical government attitude towards the visit. I personally would like to see the pontiff postpone this trip, even though I have thoughts at the same time that this is what the Turks want.

CNA Story [catholicnewsagency.com]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Fther Anthony,

I agree with you. I wish he would postpone...indefinitely.

Let us all pray for Pope Benedict! May Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ and His Holy Mother protect him with a host of angels!

Gordo

I don't wish he would postpone. I am happy to see him holding his head high and proclaiming his faith, being civil and respectful and warm, while remaining firm and steady. We need this example now, and we need it even more in countries like Turkey. God forbid something should happen while he is there, it will only prove how important it is for us to stand up for our faith and our brothers and sisters in Christ who must live there every single day. Being the pope, he will be handled with kid gloves. They might not be nice, and some crazy could still do something, but Pope Benedict is going to only have a small taste of the persecution the Turkish Christians must live with on a daily basis. We need to stand up to this tyranny, we need to be willing to face it, and we need to support Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew for their witness to faith in Christ.

May the Lord grant them courage and strength. May the Holy prophet Daniel pray for their safety as they walk among the lions, and may the three holy youths Ananias, Azarius and Misail, pray for them as they stand among the flames. May the Lord send his angels to watch over them, making the heat of the furnace feel like a cool dew, protecting and guiding their every step. Amen.

It seems that the Turkish government says one thing yet their actions indicate otherwise. Here is another story to follow up yesterday's from Catholic News Agency. Not that the Turkish government has ever extended itself for Christians in the past.

CNA News Story regarding Papal Trip [catholicnewsagency.com]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+