www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall An open letter on forum censorship

Nicky's Baba,

Amen to your suggestion! There are two or three threads that some are enamored with that ought to be closed for lack of content. This is only one of them.

Dan Lauffer :rolleyes:

Dear Friends,

Well, before this thread is closed, I wanted to say how much I am in agreement with Dr. John and the Administrator on the subject of converts.

I have helped a number of converts over the years make the change.

Converts are truly a special breed of people. My faith has been strengthened by simply being around them.

At the same time, they face a set of issues that cradles don't and they need to be more open about them before they get into more trouble than just raising the Administrator's ire here.

An example here is a friend who became Orthodox.

He absolutely hated the Anglican church or anything that smacked of western liturgy.

Even the bishop would find him too much - prayer ropes dangling from his wrist, a great big Cross, making the Sign of the Cross at the drop of a hat, and that roving eye ready to name anyone "Heretic" for not fulfilling everything down to the letter.

In addition, in the first two years as an Orthodox Christian, he was excommunicated three times by his priest in confession. When he went to his bishop to speak to him, the bishop saw him through the window and wouldn't even come to the door.

This is why I really believe there should be a separate forum here dealing with convert issues, perhaps a "Converts' Corner."

That way any axes that people want to grind can be done so out of earshot of others who simply want to share issues about faith, prayer, liturgy and the general matter of living in Christ.

Over to you, Administrator, Sir!

Alex

8/21 Feb. 2002
St Theodore Stratelates

Final posting.

Friends, you know how to get a hold of me.

Kurt: FYI, I know who you really are, Konrad Nimchek, and that "Olga Nimchek' is your troll alias.

Goodbye.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Alex, I think that you are right on track -- not just because you have made comforting comments to me.

The fact is that we are not only a "church" or a "parish", but -- in the Byzantine tradition: a family. One can know all the traditions, the typikon, the vestments, the rituals, etc. but then one is merely a scholar. While scholarship is fine (hey, you too are up there in academic credentials!!!) the fact is that on Sunday (and other days) we come together to pray as a believing family. So newby acolytes head down the wrong aisle at the entrances, the cantors sing the wrong tropar, the 'wrong icon' is on the tetrapod, the kadilo goes out with no smoke; candles tip over, etc.

But: who really cares?

It's just us; screw-up human beings. But the critical thing is: we've done it together as a loving (and sometimes laughing) community of believers. And it doesn't really matter what 'jurisdiction' you're in; we're just a screw-up family -- just like at our homes. But we laugh and love; and in doing this we fulfill the commandment of Christ to love and accept one another.

In terms of forum censorship: I've not seen it. (perhaps because I'm seen as one of the more liberal faction). For me, the ideas are the most important. But I don't like the idea that we are supposed to be toe-ing the line of whatever paradigm. Or chastising folks because they are proposing ideas that are outside the 'accepted' paradigm. The forum is NOT part of a canonical debate, subject to the rule of 'established' theologies. It's an open discussion involving not only 'canonical' Catholics, but also members of various Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Armenian, and Western Christian groups. And THAT precisely is the strength of the forum. It is not here to poop on those who have practices that offend historical principles, but rather to provide an opportunity for thinking believers to discuss issues in a non-judgemental way. Based upon theology or history or current pastoral needs. We are, after all, Christians whose obligation is to expound the Gospel to the non-believers. Our primary goal is to unearth ways to bring the truth of Jesus Christ to those who do not really understand Him. And to use our traditions to achieve this end, without being forced to maintain the 'traditions' that would sacrifice our ability to reach others.

Go get 'em!!!!

Blessings!

I am very sorry to see Serge go. I always appreciated his thoughtful posts.

Forum,
I am also dissapointed that Serge has left. I loved reading his posts. Thank God he has a website. Hope you come back around to the forum and thanks for your work in the vineyard.
Z Bohom,
-ukrainiancatholic

Dear Friends,

I too am sorry to see Reader Sergius go and I think it is also regrettable that the parting was as it was.

I don't know the full reasons, nor do I wish to.

Reader Sergius is always welcome back, as I'm sure everyone will agree.

But if Muhammad won't come to the mountain, we can always visit Serge on his website and continue to benefit from his insights and personality there!

Alex

[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: Mark A ]

[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: Mark A ]

Dear Mark,

You were saying . . .?

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr John:
[QB]Anastasios notes above: "My priest was also booted out of one of Fr. Ephraim's monastaries when he stopped by to peek inside it--the cradle Greek nuns and priest, upon finding out he was a uniate, removed him from the church and told him to watch vespers "from the vestibule."

I would refer you to the pokrov website. Fr. Ephraim's 'monasteries and convents' have had serious problems, and from the comments on pokrov and elsewhere, are considered more 'cult' than real Orthodox by Greeks in the 'know'.

While I am personally somewhat ambiguous about Fr. Ephraim's monasteries, they are official, real monasteries in the ethnic-social club that is called the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America. There certainly are substantial numbers of people in the GOA who are supporters of him, as well as detractors.
Finally, have you ever been to one of his monasteries?

MK

Dear Michael,

Since Fr. Ephraim has a monastery near my home somewhat, i do plan to go.

My (Byzantine) Chant instructor has visited Fr. Ephraim's monasteries. He likes them and likes Fr. E. In fact, Fr. E's pic is on the page I posted in forum #2 on "monastery pictures (temporary link)" or something similar to that.

In Christ,

anastasios

Glory to Jesus Christ!

My son visited Mount Athos about7 years ago. While there, he visited many of the Athonite Monasteries. He spent about 3 weeks there attending services and met Father Ephriam at the monastery he was abbot of on Mount Athos. Father Ephriam encouraged him to look into a monastic calling but not in Greece, he felt he should look to the monasteries in his own homeland, the US---at the time there were no monasteries of Elder Ephriam here.

He went into a ROCOR monastery for about a year decided it was not for him and returned to the world. He has recently married and is very happy with his choice. He still loves to visit monasteries and has been to Father Ephiam's monastery here in Texas. He stated that Father Ephriam's monastery is very true to the monastacism and the Athonite traditions that he observed while on Mount Athos.

He told me that he believes the problems arise from the very different style of Orthodox Monasteries that have developed in the United States. Most US monasteries have been founded by "Book" monastics---in other words they have read about Orthodox Monastacism and have tried to develop monasteries in the Orthdox Churches in the US from what they have read. They have not lived true orthodox monasticism before starting out on their own, he qualified this because he has met some monastics who had tried monastacism in the old country and could not hack it came back to the US and started their own brand (true american independency I fear).

He stated that Father Ephriam's Monastery in Texas (Holy Archangels) appear to follow completely the rule and spiritual life that he found in all of the Athonite Monasteries he saw on Mount Athos. He feels that this is true Greek Orthodox Manastacism of the Athonite model. The problem may be that Orthodox parents who have raised their children in the very secular , modern society of the US will likely have problems releasing teir children to what is basically a more ancient, spiritual society that focusses on repentence and returning to the simple life of the Gospel as exhibited by traditional Athonite monastacism. In this lies the issues that appear to be presented against Elder Ephriam on the Pokrov site.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Its a shame to see people knock FR. E for what he's done in the field of traditional monasticism in this country. Before he came to America, the GOA had one monastery with hardly any monks and no nuns. Now they have a rich and prosperous spiritual life. This is important to the Orthodox in a way which cannot be understood by Byzantine Catholics who, because of enforced celbicy of there priest, have lived like the Latins in to appreciate the value of and spirituality of such a vocation. Also, the Byzantine Church has always, I believe, had more monastics in America then all the Orthodox jurisdictions combined.

WE Orthodox in America however have suffered from lack of monastic communities and appreciation for them in our Churches. THis is a serious problem because such things are necessary in Orthodoxy for flurishing spirituality. Without them our Churches become little better then a type of eastern rite protestantism.

Let us pray for the continuation and successe of Fr. E and his monasteries and convents across this great land of ours.

Robert K.

Dear, in Christ!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Some very interesting ideas, and I encourage a new topic on this subject. This thread has wandered far from its original title, and perhaps would be better served by a more appropriate title.

With thanks,

Elias