www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Who Will Kill the Pope in Istanbul?

Sigh.

I'm talking about an absolutist form of pacifism that says it is always morally wrong for a people to defend themselves against unjust aggressors. Such a view is heresy. It is neither Catholic nor Orthodox teaching. Yes, there are some Christians who hold to it, but insofar as they do, they are not upholding the faith. They do it - and others -an injustice.

Catholic and Orthodox teaching is that peace is always the goal, and should always be sought, without denying legitimate defense.

You should read the history of Catholic and Orthodox warriors who employed violence to restrain and destroy evil. Their virtue was in their courage and faith in the face of grave evil and danger. These were men (and some women) who faced terrible odds and terrible evils. They were saints who loved peace, and yet employed violence...choosing a higher good over a lesser good. Absolutist views on pacifism would exclude them from the canons.

I don't know how much clearer I can be. If you insist on misquoting me, don't bother please!

Gordo:
I don't think I've misquoted you. You are calling some things as pacifism which I don't consider to be pacifism, which brings me back to what I've been saying-it seems to me that your position condemns as heretics those who are pacifists. I don't think pointing out what is the logical conclusion of your comments amounts to misquoting you. Also, it seems to me that you're overlooking part of what I'm saying here. There is no need for you to try to convince me of the just war position-which is what I get the feeling you're trying to do-I support just war theory. I'm on your side when you say that there are situations that justify the use of force against aggression. I just think that given the fact that there is no specific anathema against pacifism and the fact that Jesus actually said certain things he said, which I have pointed out in a previous post, I don't think it's a good idea to say that pacifism (as I understand pacifism-let's call it unconditional pacifism-since you and I seem not to agree completely on a definition of pacifism) is a heresy. When the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, or the Pope, or an Ecumenical Council actually states that unconditional pacifism is heresy, I'll accept that. I will not be persuaded that pacifism is heresy just because you or any other individual other than the Pope (speaking ex cathedra) says so.
Sincerely,
Ryan

Dear Gordo,

I am feeling very angry right now, and I am not one who usually allows the passions to get the better of me. We are dealing with illogical, irrational, hateful, and barbarous people.

Greece would not have been rid of the Ottoman/Muslim yoke if man, woman and child, priest, bishop and layman, hadn't laid down their lives in a physical struggle. Prayer was in their hearts and on their lips for *four hundred* years, and that is why, in the end, it was on the Feast of the Annunciation of our Blessed Lady, that Greece formally won its independence.

Let us pray that we will never, ever, have to fight or hurt a single soul in any situation. Let us pray for peace and protection of all pious Christians from these madmen, and may God protect Pope Benedict XVI.

May we strive be worthy for God to hear our prayers!

May God forgive the taking for granted many lukewarm Christians feel about the freedom to worship and about the precious gift of faith and salvation given to us which is rejected.

Let us thank Him each and every day for the gift of faith He has given us and for the freedom and safety to practice it!

In Christ,
Alice

Gordo:
I would also add this. If you were to be called a heretic by an unconditional pacifist because you espouse just war theory, I would vociferously defend you against such an accusation based on the CCC, as well as the positive way in which Holy Scripture portrays Israel's self-defense in the book of Esther.
Peace,
Ryan

Dear Alice:

I agree with you when you say, "We are dealing with illogical, irrational, hateful, and barbarous people." I would also point out-and I'm sure that you'll agree-that our Lord requires that we pray for them and that we love them-in spite of the fact that they are our enemies.

You state, "May God forgive the taking for granted many lukewarm Christians feel about the freedom to worship and about the precious gift of faith and salvation given to us which is rejected." I'm not sure who you're talking about here, but if you're saying that pacifist Christians are "lukewarm," I don't think your being fair. If I'm misreading your intent, please forgive me. One Christian I know and consider to be a friend is and unconditional pacifist. Sometimes he is confronted with those who ask him if his pacifism extends to the point that he would allow himself and his family to be harmed or even killed by an intruder. His response is yes, because he is convinced that that is exactly what the Gospel requires of him. Ultimately, I disagree with him on this point, but I assure you, his position is not an easy one to take, given our natural instinct for survival and the desires of spouses to defend each other and the desires of parents to defend their children. I know this man well and he is certainly not lukewarm.

Sincerely,
Ryan

Dear Ryan,

Oh my gosh! I wasn't referring to you or 'pacifists' at all.

I didn't even read through the posts between you and Gordo because I am at work. I just saw a post and a title, and I was just blowing off a little steam about these madmen threatening the Pope and threatening Christians, and all the recent news articles I have been reading.

I was actually thinking about all the people I know who could care less about their spiritual lives or going to church on Sundays or any other day for that matter. I was thinking about the fear I have always felt that one day we might have to fear these people up close and experience the fear of their conversion style up close. That is all!

Me thinks you have to chill out a little.
Let's not read political issues and labeling into everything! You completely misread my intent.

Perhaps it is my fault for not writing more clearly or expressing myself more clearly. Sorry about that....

Regards,
Alice

Dear Alice:
Sorry for assuming. What startled me when I thought you were referring to those who are pacifists (again I'm sorry for assuming), is that it seemed to me to be entirely out of character for you to call someone "lukewarm" simply because of a disagreement, which I now see was not the case at all. Please forgive me for the assumption.
Sincerely,
Ryan

Dear Ryan,

...No problem!

You are hereby forgiven!

Best Regards,
Alice

Gordo, I'll be glad to dig around and see what Fr. Arseny quotes I might have. It'll take a day or so, but I'll be sure to post them on this thread.

Alice, I understand your anger quite well.I still have a ways to go in forgiving the founding fathers for justifying and allowing African slavery and the abuse of Native Americans, and though it ended badly I'm glad Haitians fought France for freedom.I side with those who began slave revolts and the suffering of those who were in their paths moves me very,very,very little.Yes, that's unchristian and I know I have to remove that from my heart.

That said, I absolutely believe that even "righteous" fighting is unnecessary when we are radically transformed.Those who are serious about transformation (and I believe there are few,and I harbor no illusions about being one of them).The laws and rules for when it's right to kill and fight,etc. and ad nauseaum are there because we're like the Jews of whom Jesus spoke when saying divorces were allowed because their spiritual understanding was so low.

Peace,
Indigo

Amen, Alice! I could not agree more. My hope is that these people convert, set aside their hate and embrace us as brothers.

That is my hope and prayer.

But I doubt we will see that day anytime soon.

What is so bothersome is that, unlike Rushdie, Pope Benedict is a very public figure who lives on a very well defined and well known spot of territory in Rome a few hours flight from anywhere in the Middle East. Every day of his life, he will ask himself: "Is this the day, Lord Jesus?" That is the life these monsters have taken from him. He has lost all freedom, what little he had, to be a pastor and feel safe to visit his flock.

Of course, this is the same worry our Holy Father Patriarch Bartholomew has borne since his election. "Is this the day, Lord Jesus?" These men deserve our undying loyalty and prayers, since they are the chief shepherds of the flock of Christ.

May the Mother of God protect them!

Fraternally in Christ,

Gordon

Dear Pani Rose,

I read the article in Spiritdaily, and to be honest I've been quite busy. I have been responding to writers in two Islamic newspapers, that oddly enough, wanted responses. Of course I told them that they had misinterpreted the Pope's remarks etc.

I noticed that the Islamic writers really were on the defensive about the Pope's remarks, and refuted them with references to history and so on and so forth...sarcastically of course. The interesting thing is that at the end, they did ask the Muslims to show that they are not violent, and that they are willing to dialogue. One even went so far as to say, our religion is not made of sand, it is a rock. Thereby referring that they can reason about it.

I do hope the Pope's speech will be translated into Arabic.

Zenovia

Certainly not mass invasions of nations and the forced conversions of their populations. you have GOT to be crazy if you think that is serious policy though some members of the current administration certainly believe in some of that insanity.

Dear Brian,

In reference to my statement that the Muslims will become Christian Elizabeth Marie stated:

And you responded:

I say:

Elizabeth Marie did not mean that anyone would be converted by military force, but rather wondered how it would come about.

Conversions actually occur through God's Spirit in whichever way He pleases. Actually Elizabeth Marie was wrong, because mass conversions came about through saints. Maybe not in the saint's lifetime, but surely after their martydom

Zenovia

Dear Brian you now said:

I say:

I would love to know where in the world you get your idea's from. If you followed everything that has occurred in Iraq and Afganistan, and how we encouraged them to form a constitution within their own cultural and religious context. A constitution that we supported financially, you would realize how rediculous you sound. :rolleyes:

Zenovia

My Dear!!!! The VERY question I have wanted to ask you, ma Chere!!!!!!!!

:rolleyes: