www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Who Will Kill the Pope in Istanbul?

Ma Chere Zenovia,

If in your zeal, you had actually taken the time to see whom i was quoting , it was NOT Elizabeth but Byzan in Tn's comment in RESPONSE to her!!!!!!!!! I am a librarian and I do tend to pick up on such things! :rolleyes:

and if anyone looks ridiculous, it is the same one who keeps bringing up the same tired topics about imminent Holy War :p

Please note that the quote attributed to me was actually written by someone else.

Didn't St. Vladimir force the conversion of his people to Orthodoxy? I heard that 3000 were baptized on one day in some villages. If people are docile and willing to convert, then that is a good thing.

Actually, I have heard some reports that thousands (perhaps millions) of muslims have converted to Christianity but are going to underground churches to avoid martyrdom and to spread the Christian faith. Mel Gibson's film was shown in Islamic countries due to the supposedly anti-semitic nature of the film. Some muslims were weeping as they left the theaters.

Oh, I was talking to a Muslim student at the university today. He was being tutored by me and needed help with his essay. He was very concerned over the firebombing of the Christian and Orthodox Churches in Gaza and in Israel over the weekend.

Anyway, he said that the prophet Mohammed predicted that Islam would have weird elements during the beginning of Islam. Then it would become somewhat stable and finally during the end times, Islam would become have more weirdness (his words). He said that Muslims believe in the End Times. There would be an Anti-Christ, a charismatic ruler who would deceive the whole world. Christ would come again and be killed by the Anti-Christ, but would rise again and slay the Anti-Christ. Then Christ would renew the earth. So they are looking forward to the return of Christ.

However, the Muslims believe that Christ didn't die the first time, but that He rose into heaven like Elijah. They believe He will be put to death the second time He comes and that He will rise again and renew the earth.

I wonder if Mel Gibson's film was therefore misunderstood to be an account of the Second Coming.

Dear Elizabeth Marie you said:

I say:

Actually, people follow their ruler. In that sense the people under Prince Vladimir coverted to Christianity because he wanted it.

I know that either Kublai or Ghengis Khan told Marco Polo to bring some Christian scholars, so that his people can become Christians. He said how can I tell the 'fakirs' to become Christian, when they are able to perform feats, such as having pitches filling glasses without anyone holding them, etc.

Marco Polo went back to Venice but by that time the Pope had died, and it was two years before another one was elected. When he was finally able to return to the Khan with the learned priests, (whichever Khan it was ), the Khan had also passed away.

Now when the Japanese were defeated after WW II, the Emporor told General MacArthur that he wanted his people to become Christians. General MacArthur believed that Christianity shouldn't be imposed on them and asked that 10,000 ministers be sent to Japan. Well Japan didn't get the ministers, and the Japanese are not Christians.

So to get back to the topic, actually when Emporor Constantine declared Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire, it was not the end of paganism. Actually paganism existed for many years, and the last stronghold, oddly enough, was Athens. Their pagan schools of philosophy were closed during Justinians time, two hundred years later. :rolleyes:

Of course, paganism probably still continued in different pockets of Europe and the world for centuries to come, (the witchcrft burnings, etc.) ...and if Christianity had taken hold at all in the Empire, it was really due to saints. There are many stories of miracles by saints, that have been discarded by the Protestant historians. The main stream Protestants believe they ceased to exist after the resurrection of Christ. And today even the resurrection is being discarded by many.

Zenovia

The "Grand Caan" is named as "Cublai". The Pope "l'Apostoill" is Clement IV. The eventual successor is "Gregor de Plaience". kublai Khan asks the Pope to send with the missionaries "de l'olio de la lanpe que ard sor le sepoucre de Deo en Jerusalem" - Oil from the lamp which burns over the Sepulchre of God in Jerusalem"

Dear Highlander,

When you mentioned the oil from the 'Sepulcher' I thought 'WOW'. That I did not know. Yet we must account it all to God's Will. I can only assume from what happened that the Mongols were not yet prepared and ready for Christianity. Everything according to God's Will and time.

Zenovia

Kublai Khan's request to the Pope was made to Nicolau Polo and his brother Mafeu. When they got back to Acre, Marco was 12 years old.
The missionaries the Pope appointed were "two friars preacher who were the most learned in the whole land. One had the name Frer Nicolau de Vicense, the other the name Frer Guilielme de Tripule." Taking Marco the Polo brothers went straight to "Laias" (the identification of this place escapes me). At this point "Bondocdaire who was sultan of Babelonie (Babylonia) came into Arminie (Armenia) with a great host and did great damage throughout the country". The two friars refused to go any further, handed the documents over to the Polos and "s'en alent avec le mestre deu temple" - went away with the Master of the Templars. The Polos however continued and met the Grand Caan in his city of Clemeinfu after a journey lasting 3 years. They gave him the gifts sent by the Pope including "le saint oleo de cui il fist grant joie, et le tient mout chier" "the holy oil of which he had great joy and held it very dear".
So the Word was not preached to the Tartars because the preachers refused to take the risk.

Okay, Okay I got the hint,I'm going.
Gordo, I haven't forgotten the quotes though.

Okay, Okay I can take a hint,I'm gone.
Gordo, I haven't forgotten the quotes.

CIX!

With all respect, in most of the world we call this 'forming puppet governments'. The USA did it with both Afghanistan and Iraq, as it did in Iran, Haiti... need I go on? Most of the world looks upon America's self-appointed policing of the world with great distaste, wishing she would mind her own business more often. The issue of Taiwan is one such case in question.

/Rant over

Edward

Dear Highlander,

Thank you for that informtion. Ah, ha! It's been kept secret from me...those cowardly friars. I guess it was not God's Will, but someone else's. Think of all the lost souls, what a pity!

Of course how were the friars to know that they would even survive. A pity just the same...no sacrifice there!

Zenovia

CIX!

Constantine I did nothing of the sort - he merely repealed the legal penalties attached to being a Christian, and legalised the practice of Christianity.

Interestingly enough, even though he was a Christian at death, he was declared divus or deified, after his death.

This is testified by both coinage (for instance, [http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-12193 this one]), and Eusebius describing exactly these coins. (And probably inscriptions, too, though I can't think of an example right now, but will look for one, if you want.)

Constantine remained pontifex maximus of all Romans, including pagans; while he personally became Christian, he didn't abolish the imperial cult (we have an inscription from the town of Hispellum: Constantine grants the town's wish to build a temple to the Flavian dynasty, he only forbids bloody sacrifices). Certainly, his deification was not emphasized by his Christian sons and is rarely mentioned in literary sources, as virtually all later pro-Constantinian sources are Christian, but it happened.

Constantine might have been pro-Christian, but above all, he was a realist when it came to power, who ruled an Empire with a still considerable pagan population, and it shouldn't be surprising that he catered to both Christians and Pagans. (Apart from that: our modern view of strictly opposed, confronting sides doesn't do justice to Late Antique reality; there was a large area of overlapping and common ground. Christian Saint and pagan Deified Emperor is typical for Constantinian religious politics.)

Dear Edward you said:

I say:

We look upon it as trying to form democracies in the same way they were formed in Japan and Germany at the end of WW II. They are certainly not puppet governments now are they, even though we still have our troops stationed there? The belief is that democracies do not start wars.

The problem with the Middle East though, is that the fanatics learn quickly to our detriment. The extremists start their pseudo charities, even though they have a total disregard for the lives of their people, in order to get their support. Unfortunately, it seems that democracy is not feasible where Islam is concerned.

I give President Bush though credit for at least trying. Had England and France done the same before WW II, that war would have been prevented. All it needed was one brave French man to shoot at the Germans when they marched into the Rhineland, and the Germans had orders to retreat...and it would have been the end for Adolph Hitler. Germany was not ready for a war.

We always know and experience the sufferings when actions have not been taken, such as the French not firing that shot, but we never know what was and is prevented when actions are taken. So in that sense, we went to war in Vietnam and suffered dearly for it, yet we do not know what would have occurred if we did not go into that war.
[/QUOTE]

You said:
I say:

Unfortunately, we in the West have such a thing as a 'word of honor'. That 'word' was given to Taiwan, and it has to be honored by us. If we don't, then trust with others can never be established.

You know, no civilized nation likes to see it's young men killed or maimed in war. I think quite often of the Czar Nicholas II, and how in order to keep his word of honor went to war with Germany over Serbia. Yet, not only his country was destroyed, but he and his family were killed.
So should one keep one's word or not?

Hey what difference Taiwan? Look Cyprus was promised to Greece during both the First and Second World War, and England never gave it to Greece. It would have been been too precarious for Britain, as it was part of Britains life line...and Greece was so unstable. Had it not been so, the USA and Britain would never had allowed the Turkish invasion. :rolleyes:

Cyprus on the other hand, was enjoying the special favors granted her by Britain, with the intent that she wouldn't want to lower her standard of living by uniting with Greece, so that was that. China should get over it.

Besides, be grateful that Japan is not a threat to China, thanks to us. I'm getting a little tired of this lack of gratitude in the world towards us. I wish you people would remember that had it not been for our America's decency, we would have kept the whole world in slavery after WW II.

So there!!! :p :p :p

Zenovia

CIX!

The belief that democracies do not start wars is perhaps rather hilarious, given the American invasion of Iraq and sundry nations in recent memory.

I can point you to a lovely Greek example: Athens, which everyone enjoys holding up as a model of democracy, was possibly the most warlike of the ancient polises. I hardly need remind you of the shocking expedition against Melos, an island that did Athens no harm except wishing to stay neutral in the Athens-Sparta spat. Athens, somewhat miffed by this, attacked and conquered Melos, its menfolk put to the sword, their women and children taken into slavery. Then in the following year came the disastrously foolish Sicilian expedition, which by overextending Athens' resources, resulted in her defeat by Sparta, forever destroying her military prestige and hegemony of the Greek-speaking world.

It's obvious George W. Bush has never read Thucydides. The current nosy meddling by the USA in world affairs is disconcertingly similar to the nonsense that the Athenian Assembly produced in the last years of the Athenian Empire.

As for looking upon the USA's work in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Haiti, Argentina et caetera as 'forming democracies', I suggest you actually do some reading about what happened in Iran, Haiti and Argentina - all three of them are copiously documented examples of the USA toppling democratically-elected governments and installing USA-favouring puppets (Haiti), or propping up unpopular repressive and murderous regimes (Iran under the Shah and Argentina's military junta in the 70s).

Being Greek, you should be well aware that the United States was a major supporter of the Portuguese, Spanish and Greek dictatorships, as well as dictatorial regimes in Taiwan, South Korea and Latin America, thereby retarding their long-overdue transitions to democracy in the 70s.

If you think the Vietnam and Korean Wars were examples of Americans willingness to sacrifice for liberty and form democracies, perhaps you may not be aware that Syngman Rhee's regime in South Korea and Nguyen Van Thieu's regime in South Vietnam, for which American forces were fighting, were actually brutal military dictatorships.

During the 80s, under Ronald Reagan, the United States sent more military and police aid to more dictatorships than any other nation.

Then there is the lovely School of the Americas, at Fort Benning, Georgia. Initially established in Panama in 1946, it was kicked out of that country in 1984 under the terms of the Panama Canal Treaty. Former Panamanian President, Jorge Illueca, stated that the School of the Americas was the 'biggest base for destabilization in Latin America'. The SOA, frequently dubbed the 'School of Assassins', has left a trail of blood and suffering in every country where its graduates have returned.

Over its 59 years, the SOA has trained over 60,000 Latin American soldiers in counterinsurgency techniques, sniper training, commando and psychological warfare, military intelligence, interrogation tactics AND TORTURE. These graduates have consistently used their skills to wage a war against their own people. Among those targeted by SOA graduates are educators, union organizers, religious workers, student leaders, and others who work for the rights of the poor. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, 'disappeared', massacred, and forced into refugee by those trained at the School of Assassins.

The SOA is funded by the American government, and hence it is no exaggeration to say that the American taxpayer is therefore supporting these gross human-rights violators. The SOA has produced more dictators than any other school in the history of the world. Charming, no?

Then there is our dear beloved Cyprus, island of so many saints. When in 1974, Turkish troops, armed with American weapons, seized the northern 40 percent of the island nation of Cyprus and engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the ethnic Greek population, killing thousands of civilians, the UN Security Council condemned the invasion and called for Turkey�s immediate withdrawal. However, the United States blocked the imposition of international sanctions to force the Turks to pull out. Congress immediately cut off aid to Turkey in response to the invasion and occupation, but aid was restored three years later after strong pressure from President Jimmy Carter on the grounds that a resumption of aid would make it easier to convince the Turks to withdraw. It's been nearly 40 years and the Turks are showing no signs of withdrawing. For the delightful 'Independent Turkish Cyprus', Greek Cypriots have the USA to thank for backing the Turkish armed forces.

Talk about freedom and democracy all you want, America's actions speak much louder and it is to these that the world has been listening.

Nonsense. The flower of French youth was mostly cut down in WWI - that's the reason why France was such a walkover in WWII. There was almost nobody left to fight.

Speaking of Bush, George W Bush actually reminds me very much of the Athenian General Alcibiades. Alcibiades was a polarising figure, exceedingly ambitious and proposing the Sicilian expedition in order to gain wealth and reputation by means of military success. Alcibiades is held responsible by Thucydides for the destruction of Athens, since "his habits gave offence to every one, and caused them to commit affairs to other hands, and thus before long to ruin the city". Of course, one major difference is that Alcibiades was a persuasive and skilled orator, a master of words. George W Bush as an orator, on the other hand, is, perhaps, less than stellar. Another is that Alcibiades was generally a brilliant strategist and general, leading the fleet of Athens personally, and actually fought in wars - i.e. not a draught-dodger and certainly did not shy away from combat.

Please don't attempt to teach the Chinese about honour. Our philosophers were discussing concepts of honour, justice, government, morality and metaphysics when the Greeks didn't even have an alphabet.

A 'word of honour' ought not be given in situations where one has no right to give it. Taiwan is part of China, whether America likes it or not, and to defend its pretended sovereignty is not within America's rights or jurisdiction.

Perhaps China should then give its word of support to Hispanic movements in California and Texas that wish to unite them with Mexico. Same difference.

Taiwan is an integral part of China. Her official name continues to be 'Republic of China'. She was taken by force from China by the Japanese at the turn of the century, and remains a symbol of Chinese humiliation at foreign hands as long as she is separate. At the current rate, China's standard of living will surpass Taiwan's within a decade, Taiwan will be petition for unity, and union will be acheived peacefully - as long as America doesn't keep supporting the small but vocal secessionist minority. Need I remind you that the current Taiwanese president is well-known for being Washington's lapdog, and had to fake an assasination attempt (like something out of a very bad horror flick) and engage in big-time election fraud to stay in power the last time Taiwan had elections?

On the other hand, Cyprus has never been part of the modern state of Greece, and has never been ruled from Athens. Cyprus may have once been part of the Eastern Roman Empire, but never part of Greece, except perhaps as part of the concept of Hellas. Shades of the Great Idea coming up?

If Japan is not a threat to China today, it is because of the Chinese military and oeconomic strength - both of which America would have merrily sabotaged, given half a chance.

Though with your comment on 'lack of gratitude', you've hit the nail right on the head about why most of the world is sick and tired of American meddling. America appears to believe the world owes her a living.

How far back would you like to go with 'lack of gratitude'? If not for France's aid to the Rebellion of the American Colonies, you would today still be under your rightful monarch (as is meet and right to my thinking, but you may differ on this). I saw precious little gratitude in the American calumnies of the French as 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' in the last few years.

Going back to Greece, Athens went quite quickly from being Saviour of Hellas against the Persian threat, to peaceful hegemony of the Greek states, to being an oppressive and murderous tyrant resented by all the states which had to pay her tribute (officially contributions to the Delian League for the defence of all Greece, but which Athens used almost entirely to enrich herself).

America should pay heed to the history of Classical Athens, or she will go the same way.

Just as you wish more gratitude from the rest of the world towards America, I wish more Americans (whom I love greatly) would get out and actually open their eyes to what their government has been doing around the world in their name. The truth may be highly unpalatable.

Edward,

yours was the best post in this entire strange thread. Thank God, someone with SOME historical knowledge!