www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Can seminaries benefit from social sciences?

Dear Friends,

At the suggestion of John/Petrus, this thread asks the question, "Would seminaries and seminarians benefit from a greater exposure to the human sciences such as psychology, sociology etc.?"

Seminarians as future Church leaders will be challenged by the organizational dynamics of the Church, Church politics (it's everywhere), cultural issues as they impact their pastoral work, and the personal issues raised by parishioners.

What say you? Do you think a solid background in the social sciences would help seminarians become more helpful to the Church and less naive about it at the same time?

(Controversy is a great kick-starter, wouldn't you say? )

Alex

I think it's rather silly NOT to teach seminarians the skills they will need - some of which are usually attributed to the social sciences. Stuff like small group dynamics, leadership skills and the basics of how to run a business. The challenge is to avoid the assumptions often found in the secular world that these skills are ALL you need, and that grace (and Him with whom it originates) doesn't enter into the equation.

Sharon

Dear Sharon,

Unfortunately, I've come across seminarians and priest (not on this forum!) who seem to think that Grace and theology is ALL you need to pull it off in a parish!

Alex

Slava Jesu Kristu,

I too believe that seminarians need social sciences to cope in todays world. I feel that knowledge of basic modern psychology when combined with spiritual Eldership can be a powerful sanctifying force to all involved. Perhaps, if there had been more emphasis on the psychological needs of the priests themselves, that mess in Boston might never had happened.

Dmitri

Because grace builds on nature I would say that some background in Sociology, Anthropology and Psychology is good for seminarians at the collegiate level and for those who want to pursue advanced degrees in the social sciences. At the theologate I think seminarians should concentrate in Theology and actively intern in church ministry including missions.

Two cents,

Paul

Dear Alex,

Good topic. I can comment from both angles: as a seminarian & church worker and as someone working in the human services field.

From the standpoint of Church work, it enables one to stay focused on the true needs of His people: that they be clothed, fed, visited, and cared for medically, psychologically, etc. This is useful foil that can help to reduce the countless hours and considerable treasure wasted in most parishes on the mundane things that do not glorify God.

As a professional social worker for the past six years at Covenant House Pennsylvania and the Lutheran Settlement House, I think that work experience and education in the human sciences if, and only if, it is informed by the Gospel is an extremely valuable undertaking and a good basis for an effective ministry in the Church. Once one loses the Gospel underpinning, however, work in the human sciences/services becomes either an overwhelmingly frustrating or a thoroughly condescending task. If one sees it as a way to glorify God (and humble oneself), then it all falls into place.

With love in Christ,

Alex, this is the real forgotten part of formation. So many priests are formed without any semblence of a sociological background.

With the level of familial disfunction in society nowadays, it is absolutely necessary for those in ministry to have some background in the social sciences. To expect someone to be placed in a counseling role without any training in social sciences doesn't seem right.

Like it or not, every person in ministry in the Church is a social worker in one capacity or another. That is reality.

I think this area is starting to get some of the attention it deserves. Our Roman brethren, I believe, are getting much more of this type of training, at least from my experience in participating in both Roman and Ukrainian Catholic diaconal programs, and we could learn something from this.

Hello all:

I agree with Andrew (as a fellow SW) that training in the human sciences may be valuable to a seminarian. And it MUST be informed by the Gospel, that's for sure. Many professions such as social work adopt a utilitarian approach to ethics, and this is not in line with faith or Church teaching. Indeed, it only helps to condone and foster what we know to be sinful.

But whatever discipline is studied, let it always be applied under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Without Him I have discovered that my work is often unfruitful .

Greetings All,

As someone who is in the seminary, I am the most qualified to answer the question about the current formation programs in seminaries. All seminaries in the wordl need to use the popes letter I will give you shepheards as a gude for their formation programs.

1. You need an undergraduate degree in the liberal arts which includes the social sciences.

2. Each year, of the four years, there are course like pastoral counseling, pastoral leaderhsip etc.

3. Each of the four years are spent in a pstoral assignment where these skills can be practiced a honed.

So you see, it is being done.

Peter

Alex
Yes I agree that the social sciences need to be taught in the seminaries, but I do worry.

We need to be careful who teaches them and what they are actually teaching.

From my experience I have seen that some of the social science professors out there are doing nothing more than indoctrination into a social welfare state that they envision.

Right here is my problem with the current system, the box that the bishops wish to place vocations in. You can not tell me that there are vocations out there that do not have a 4 year bachelors degree.

I believe that this is a false intellectualization of society today. That some how people who attend college are better suited.

Give me someone who has lived and worked in the real world.

David

Can a mere female enter the fray ?

For many years I have wondered if it is wise to train Students for the priesthood straight from School at the age of 18. OK OK I know our system is different from yours - but I have always felt that these young men need some experience of the world - otherwise they are exchanging one close community for another.

I can't help feeling that in some way, a year or two doing other things first will broaden their outlook - as well as test their vocation. Yes by all means go to Uni and do a degree - but also live the slightly chaotic life of a student. Meet folk - new folk, make new and hopefully lasting friendships which may well stay with you after ordination.The life of a celibate Priest in a Parish can be a lonely one unless he does have good friends outside the Priesthood - yes his friends in the Priesthood can be a big support , but at the same time unless they are careful they will end up talking shop!

I can clearly rememeber what happened to some of my former students who did enter Seminary straight from school - yes they completed their 6 years and were ordained - but some had problems - one has become a solitary sort of Priest - he cannot stand living in a house with other priests - he likes his own company and will not mix, another one on hhis first day in a Parish was asked to take a baby's funeral - that broke him completely, yet another - a brilliant liturgist as it happens, left after 5 years saying that he had struggled through Seminary and afterwards ,because he had been told he had a Vocation . He has since become a Social Worker and incredibly says his spiritual life has never been better since he left the Priesthood. These 3 are all guys who left School at 18 and entered the Seminary a few weeks later - two of them say they wish they had had some time before they entered - they now see they were immature .

I have no doubt that Pastoral work is included in the training [ well-- I know it is here] but is it enough - some regular time in Seminary, perhaps a few weeks in a Parish during the Summer Vacation and some short courses as well - but do they really get enough ? Why not a complete year in a Parish ? And yes they need to learn accounting and many other things and we should see that these needs are met.

Sorry I have been rambling I suspect

Angela

You are right on the money, Angela. Your points are well taken. I am currently working with a couple right now who had been counseled by a good-intentioned traditionalist Roman priest but who had gone right from high school into the seminary, with no time for getting his hands dirty with the "world" outside of the confines of the minor and major seminaries. This is not the first time (nor will likely be the last time) I have been involved in this type of situation. In fact it is much too common.

Anyway, the advice these poor people had gotten was completely detatched from reality and any notion of common sense associated with marital or familial matters. They were on the verge of leaving the Church and abandoning their faith as a result when they came to us. But they are making great progress now and have returned to practicing their faith.

So it may be part of seminary formation, certainly a needed first step. But just reading the books and going to the lectures ain't gonna cut it nor does cut it when they face real human crises right off the bat in a parish setting.

I don't think it is bad to teach secular philosophies and general culture in seminaries, it would help to update them in social science and the problems of our time. But these sciences must not take a place above and over the faith. It should not be like in many Latin American seminaries, where Marx and Freud are taught more than the Fathers' doctrine. The consequence of this is that the new priests will fail as pastors of a flock in terms of spiritual care and pastoral religious advice. The sermons are often about the social problems of the country, the economical crisis, the eruptions of the Volcano, and the eternal truth of the Gospel is often forgotten, this shouldn't happen. This has recently been analysed by jesuit writer Enrique Semo, he has a book about it.

David,

You are making the assumption that we who have degrees have not worked in secular society. The average age of seminarians these days is 36. So I guess we have just been hanging around.

Peter

Peter,
Just as you make assumptions that the only vaild vocation is one that has an academic degree.

And not to mention, what you stated as seminary requirements are the requirements of latin seminaries at worst, catholic seminaries at best.

As I have seen that the requirements differ among the orthodox seminaries.

David