www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Alito Confirmed and Sworn in as Supreme Court Justice

Stephanos,

No, and I realize that's what my post might imply so I want to make it clear that I don't think that.

I do think, however, that the "liberals" have made it their niche to "fight for the common worker/man" whereas the "conservatives" have made it their niche to fight for "moral values." Neither is totally accurate, of course.

Logos Teen

When I read Feminist Majority's reasons why you should write to your Senators and urge them to vote NO on Alito's nomination, they at least in my estimation, make him sound like a great guy. Still I get this ominous feeling that Roe vs Wade is not about to be overturned.

No profound thoughts here---just a gut-level reaction given without proof or documentation and admittedly an outsider's point of view:

The pro-life fight is pretty much won, or won to the extent that it can legally and economically be for now.

Some time ago the so-called "pro-life" leadership realized this and decided that their movement could be a vehicle for moving other agendas. They had a mass of good people following them on faith for noble reasons. Big money is involved here.

Their have largely won the pro-life fight and also created a conservative subculture. But victories need to create victories in order to win power and it is the nature of subcultures to dissemble if they are not constantly renewed and set in opposition to something larger. And there is big money involved in maintaining the conservative subculture also.

They have not been able to follow up their victory and this has created financial, intellectual and political crises in the conservative movements. The pro-life cause is reaching the end of the line and the conservative subculture is contracting and turning on itself.

The agendas they're left moving are pro-corporate, anti-labor, opposed to civil rights and, in many cases, "Christian zionist."

They built a movement that could not compromise, that sees things as either good or evil. Now they either need to negotiate a compromise and move on or switch issues.

A compromise on pro-life issues will split the conservative movement.

They can't move their agendas without dividing society. And they keep hitting walls.

Civil rights issues got stomped into the ground years ago but most people are still too decent to be overtly racist. If they take on unions directly they run up against the working class support they get. Since they're Christian zionists they won't take on the Jews. Education can be underfunded, privatized or "reformed" but their corporate backers and the military see the crisis this creates and objects and the NEA does a credible job defending education. They've railed against a mythic "big government" and enacted "taxpayers bills of rights" which have caused such crises that even Colorado and California conservatives backed off. The hand-wringing over the worst trends in youth culture had to stop: the kids are on their way to Iraq.

They need a new means of moving the message in order to recoup their money and power.

Its relatively easy to kick around immigrants and gays so they become the targets of the day. These social divisions accomplish the leader's hidden agenda of dividing society for the time being. And thus we get comments here about sodomy as if that is the problem.

Its not that these leaders have anything against immigrants and gays personally. Its not about principles. Its about money and power.

We get Alito as a kind of intellectual cover or counterpart for drowning government in the bathtub and moving the pro-corporate agenda. The pro-life leadership trots out the line, gets him appointed and goes off to deal with their crises and search for more enemies and more ways to divide society. Their power comes in shorter bursts, however, and the dollars don't quite stretch as far as they used to. They're under great pressure to produce issues and enemies.

Meanwhile, good pro-life followers start having problems getting their retirement benefits; their pension funds get raided; they can't access FMLA; their workplaces aren't as safe as they used to be; their work gets sent overseas; they can't go to college; they come back from Iraq and the VA system can't cope with their PTSD.

None of this has anything to do with abortion. None of this has anything to do with gays or immigrants.

It has everything to do with some bad court decisions which slipped by when no one was looking and a tilt in the balance of power between corporations and workers.

And these followers get justifiably upset. They still see things as either good or evil. They wonder if the energy put into getting Alito in was the right thing to do. They experience a crisis of values because they were misled.

Then what?

To all crying liberals on this forum,

Do you all realize that we have had a catastrophy such as 911, which could have sent this country and the world into a depression, as well as natural disasters that were beyond measure and could have completely destroyed this nation...and yet our economy is still greater than Japan and the EU combined.

What in the world are you people 'crying' about? Frankly from where I sit, I can't see the soup lines, so let's start giving credit where credit is due.

As for Judge Alito, I was surprised to read a newspaper that said Bush 'won'. Shouldn't it have been the 'people' won. After all, didn't we vote for Pres. Bush and 'his' judgement on who 'he' wanted to place on the Supreme Court.

A staunch conservative Republican,

Zenovia

Why must you provoke and be so offensive? You're going to bring others down to your juvenile level...

Oh, wait. And what's our deficit again?

Then I'd advise you to get off your high horse and check out a soup kitchen this Saturday. Maybe then you can see! There are millions of them!!!

I'm sorry.

See, I've been brought down to your level.

Logos Teen

No one can say for sure what will happen. My guess is that as we get more justices on the Supreme Court that interpret the Constitution based upon original intent rather then legislating from the bench we will see more and more decisions that allow laws upholding life.

I liked the way (now) Chief Justice Roberts made the point about original intent. He said that if the Constitution supported the case of the little guy then he would follow the Constitution and side with the little guy. And that if the Constitution sided with big business he would follow the Constitution and side with big business. That is exactly what the courts are supposed to do under our Constitution. Desired societal change (of whatever type) is not to be legislated from the bench but accomplished by the legislatures, amending the Constitution if need be.

I might be very wrong (and I hope I am) but my guess is that there will not be a formal overturn of Roe vs Wade in the next few years. Progress will be incremental. We�ll see some states first prohibiting abortions after the viability of the child (and it will be upheld). Then we�ll see some states prohibiting doctors (and anyone else) from performing abortions without actually criminalizing the mother from getting an abortion. In other words, progress will be incremental. But, of course, places like California will almost certainly continue to allow abortions for any reason. There is still much work ahead for the coming generations. In the end, we still need to work for a human life amendment to the Constitution.

We should also expect to see restored rights in the free speech when the speech has religious content. Justice Thomas (one of my favorites) noted that right now you can burn a cross on public land and that�s protected because it�s hate speech but you can�t plant a cross on public land because that�s considered to be an establishment of religion. In this area I expect there to be common sense regarding voluntary school prayer, manger scenes, and etc. Speech should not be restricted in public places merely because it has religious content.

These appointments are a big win for the little guys � especially for the littlest among us who are still in their mothers� wombs.

Dear Teen of the Incarnate Logus,

I am sorry if I offended you by using the term 'crying liberals'. The problem is that 'utopia', simply doesn't exist. We probably are as close to it today than anyone will ever be...at least in this country. Wasn't it our Lord that said we will always have the poor among us.

The point is that we could be in a much worse situation. That this nation has continued to prosper under the adverse circumstances of these past years, is certainly to his credit. Obviously this administration must be doing something right.

As for the decifit, that will solve itself if we continue to prosper. It's the way of economics. Which reminds me of the 'voodoo' economics of the Reagan years. That's what it was called by the Democrats, yet that so called 'voodoo' economics pulled us out of a recession, and we have been growing since.

All I meant was let's start giving credit where credit is do.

Zenovia

Am I wrong to notice that there are a number of practicing Catholic Christians on the court, perhaps more than ever before in history?

I hope and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide them, and all justices of the Court with his own gifts of prudence and wisdom, for the good of our nation, and all its citizens.

the unworthy,
Elias

Zenovia,
You are not far from the Kingdom of God.

Stephanos I

Dear Zenovia,

An extremely graceful and Christ-like reply, even for a conservative . We do love seeing your posts.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Bob,

Interesting post. A few comments:

1. You state that the pro-life movement has basically - for all intents and purposes - won the war for life. Hardly. The numbers of abortions in the US still are in the millions (that is not to mention the incalculable deaths wrought by abortifacient contraceptives, such as "the pill"...yes, it has an abortifacient effect Article on Pill - How It Works [pfli.org] , IUD's and "morning after pills"). I believe that there is definitely a generational shift - a growing awareness among young people that something is really amiss with the practice of abortion...not to mention the growing body of medical evidence based upon studies that have been done on the measurable effects of abortion on women. Having an advocate in the White House has been a positive thing for our country. Bill and Hillary did nothing but throw money and resources into the international industrial abortion complex, beholden as they are to the blood money generated by this industry. As abortion numbers start to slow down in the US, expect to see even more efforts to fill the abortionist coffers through oversees abortions. At least in this administration , taxpayers dollars are not funding such efforts to exploit the women of third-world nations.

Of course, I have not even begun to mention the growing euthanasia movement, treated with great fondness it seems in the state of Oregon. (Did I mention that I met Ann Humphry of the Hemlock Society - the faithful RTD warriors of the Northwest now based in Denver? Here's an interesting read on their beliefs article [normemma.com] and Hemlock Society name and image change article [nrlc.org] She had terminal cancer at the time, and was visiting a Catholic leader in the pro-life movement who had reached out to her with real compassion. I heard the tape recordings of her husband's voicemails, Derek, the British founder of the Hemlock Society and author of "Final Exit" - a how to book on suicide - basically asking her to do everyone a favor and end her life after her terminal diagnosis. Unfortunately, she eventually succummed to her husband's badgering to do herself in a few months after I met this poor woman. (He had already helped his first wife with her "final exit", I believe. Marriage to Derek seems to have a terminal effect on women.) Years later we are now faced with battles to protect the dignity of brain-injured people (such as Terri Schiavo, another victim of a "compassionate husband" - oh yeah, except with this one he had a sweetie in the wings) as well as end-of-life issues. For the most part, liberals (apart from a few brave souls like Nat Henthoff) never met an early death advocate they didn't like. Add to that the rising costs of health care, and we've got quite a bit of social-darwinistic and capitalistic anti-life momentum to counteract.

So no - we've won some and lost some battles, but certainly the war for a civilzation of love is far from over.

2. You state that the pro-life movement has been coopted by conservatives and is pushing agendas that are far removed from their original good intent - that is, a "conservative subculture". Could not the same be said for the pro-labor movement? How many unions and union bosses actively campaign for "rights" and agendas that are far removed from the concerns of the average worker and his need for representation in collective bargaining?

3. As far as pro-corporate agendas, I think you'll find that Democrats have their own pet pro-corporate agendas...perhaps in different industries (such as the one mentioned above). Add to that the large and ever expanding numbers of unionized government workers on both the national and state levels, and you've got a large "public-sector" interest group that has its own demands and agendas...and a voracious appetite for tax revenue.

As to the other conspiracy theories you mentioned, I guess I don't have any response. Your sweeping and strange accusations (including the one about shipping out our men and women to Iraq to cure social ills) reflect a worldview that seems alien. How do taxpayers rights negatively impact the country again? And why would we want to take on the Jews?

Perhaps your advocacy for a party that supports your livelihood and a cause you deeply believe in (as do I for that matter - I'm pro-union and have worked in labor relations) but is bereft of an ethical core on an issue fundamental to your faith has caused you to resort to mental contortions to justify you staying in it. It sounds like a painful place to be. I hope you are able to make peace within yourself someday.

Peace,

Gordo

The Catholics are so blinded by the abortion issue that they fail to see the real danger in judges like Alito, Scalia, Rhenquist. (yes I know Renquist is dead, but he represents a type of justice that is extremely dangerous) The politicians don't care about abortion, what they care about is pushing federal rights over individual rights, the power of the police over the people, the power of big business over little business, the power of the executive over the congress.


I studied Renquists opinions, and learned that I never really needed to read the body of the opinion once I knew who the parties were, He was so artful a dodger that he could twist the argument so that the State always won.
Renquist could argue that a black cow was actually white.

Hmmm...I don't believe I am "blinded by the abortion issue". Perhaps you can enlighten us as to the dangerous opinions you discovered?

And the last time I checked, it was the liberals who sought to expand the reach of the state into the private lives of citizens through regulation. (Hence the late Sony Bono's "conversion" to the Republican party after experiencing the negative effects of liberalism's over-regulated paradise in California when he tried to open a restaurant.)

And what are we to say of the liberal, unelected federal and state judges who "legislate from the bench" on a whole host of issues, from gay marriage to starving brain-injured women in Florida at the request of their greedy two-timing husbands? Not to mention undermining legislation which create reasonable restrictions on abortion. Any danger there?

Perhaps your fears are misplaced...perhaps not. I'd like to hear what you have uncovered.

Gordo

Nonna,

I hate to say that I do not think this is an appropriate way to start off a post, especially on this forum. I know as Christians we need to be pro-life, but let us not peg one segment.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

We, Catholics, are not blinded by the fact that the addition of Justice Alito to the Supreme Court, making it "Catholic" for the first time in U.S. history, does not ipso facto lead to the overturn of Roe v. Wade.

Abortion is just one of the many issues involved!

But the appointment of Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Alito could be the first small step to a giant leap for the U.S., as a nation, to abandon this "culture of death" she has been in for so long and to embrace the "culture of life" held dear by Catholics and other Christians.

A "Catholic" Supreme Court is just an added bonus in our continuing fight for the sanctity of life!

Amado