www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall If you thought the "Are we in communion with these people?" Link was frightening...

Check out this link, beware it is frightening. I can't believe that Franciscans would do this kind of pagan junk!

Now we know were the term Holy Smoke comes from!

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing a link.

Michael,

I'm swearing off whatever you and I drank last night. There is no link here, unless the hootch caused me to go blind.

CDL

It does not get any better looking at the spot from this angle either. It's just not there.

ICXC
NIKA

Guys - let's face it

It's a Mystery

Must be footage from the new "Franciscans Gone Wild!" video!

Gordo

"There is no spoon." - Neo

What link?

Dear Dr Eric,

I believe that you are seeing something that is clearly not there!

Alex

http://closedcafeteria.blogspot.com/2006/04/what-are-these-franciscans-smoking.html

There, problem solved! Beware!

Well, if you must know, I once attended Vespers at the Benedictine Abbey of St. Andrew's in Valyermo, California (just north of the LA metro area).

Perhaps it is not very relevant that what was announced as "Vespers" included an Opera-Rock about Samson right before the prayer, but during the prayer itself, there was... you guessed it! Liturgical dance!

I guess whether you like it or not, these new expressions of worship are happening everywhere in the Latin Church.

Shalom,
Memo

Why are you shocked at anything the Latins do?

My only concern over this is that I see no indication of these photos being authentic. There is no indication where they were taken or anything in the photos to suggest that they truly are what they are reported to be.

Before I become too scandalized over what is allegedly shown I would have to have some indication that they are what they are said to be.

Call me a skeptic or cynical - but I just don't see anything that makes me think these photos might not be a hoax.

For some reason, seeing this makes me want to play a Youngbloods album and protest against something.

God bless,

Karen

Memo,

The issue at hand is not whether or not anyone likes these 'experessions of worship' but whether or not these 'experessions of worship' are allowed by the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.

In those cases where they are not allowed then they should not be happening no matter who likes them.

If one accepts the authority of the Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Pontiff then one should follow the instructions and rules laid out by the Magisterium. To engage in or defend liturgical dance or whatever other innovative 'expression of worship', when it is contrary to the instructions of the Roman See is wrong. It is an act of disobedience and defiance.

If one claims to be in Communion with and accepting of the authority of Rome then one should never engage in an act of defiance.

If you say, "Here I stand" and "here" is in communion with Rome then you really can do no other.

One must remember that the Franciscans are the largest Order in the Catholic Church. So they are very reflective of it. You will find the very traditional to the very liberal among them.

To participate in neo-pagan, new age silliness as pictured at the site is ridiculous and scandalous.

What is equally scandalous is the new age appropriation of the rites and traditions of cultures not their own. The Japanese tea ceremony has nothing to do with the new age nonsense presented and takes years to learn. It is a symbol of Japanses culture and should not be abused by the ignorant.

The same can be said of the pipe ceremony of Native Americans. New agers have no business blaspheming this rite. Native American Catholics have, with approval, adapted the pipe ceremony into their liturgical observances. Archbishop Charles Chaput and Bishop Daniel Pelotte have done much work to baptize elements of Native American culture.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I find it amusing in a way...the last pic with the young lady appears to be sitting on a some sort of pagan wicca star...I can rent better looking Franciscan robes and people to outfit...HOWEVER nothing that happens today shocks me much...especially out here in LaLa land...

Memo, really at Valyermo ? I heard some other distressing things from there...

How bout a pinch of parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme...with some mellow yellow...

PAX

james

Dear Karen:

Hee, hee, hee!

Zenovia

Dear Friends,

Up here, we have Jesuits who are studying First Nations traditions and have already incorporated a number of them into the Mass for the First Nations peoples.

Smoking the peace pipe, reciting the Canon of the Mass while holding an eagle feather etc. this is all meant to be relevant to the culture of the First Nations.

Just as St Cyril and Methodius made Byzantine Christianity relevant to the Slavs.

We don't have to like it or attend such Masses. We also don't have to decry them either.

In Japan, when Christians were told to get out, Japanese policemen would root out those who remained in Japan by placing neck Crosses on the ground and getting people lined up in order to spit on them.

Japanese Christians soon began to make neck Crosses with an image of a Buddha on them - and that stopped the spitting . . .

These Crosses can still be seen in Japan . . .

The Buddha is a generic image of an "Enlightened One" - and so the link with Christ as the "Eternal Buddha."

It doesn't turn my crank - but Christianity has yet to penetrate the religious culture of Asia and if there are people who know how to do it - more power to them.

If we think this is pagan etc., let's take a good, hard look at the number of pagan traditions Europe has Christianized and that we take for granted as CHRISTIAN ones.

I think Dr Eric may still be seeing something that is not there!

Alex

Brothers and Sisters:

There are a lot of New Age goings-on in the Latin Church these days. It's been going on for the past 40 years as people threw off everything "in the spirit of Vatican II" as they put it. Then they looked for something spiritual elsewhere. But the problem as I see it is that rather than look at you, our Eastern brethren, they looked East to Hinduism, Buddhism, and Native American religions.

An interesting book that my spiritual father and I spent the Lent of 1991 with entitled The Unicorn in the Sanctuary outlines the author's study of this phenomenon as it has penetrated many religious orders and parishes. IT's really a scary thing.

BOB

Professor Alex,

I don't know whether these things that the German Fransiscans did are appropriately done or not. But I do know that over the centuries we have indeed Christianized several non-Christian "pagan" elements. You should have read the horrified comments on got on a United Methodist board when I posted what to me seems like a very innocuous article about worship spaces.

http://caelumetterra.typepad.com/blog/2006/04/marias_question.html

Puritans just don't know how to have fun.

CDL

WOW! Franciscans gone wild!

I wonder if these are Catholic Franciscans. There are many groups of Franciscans - including so-called "ecumenical" Franciscans who embrace all sorts of strange theology and practices.

Clearly, these individuals are spiritually restless. Full of prelest. Not surprisingly, the loss of orthodoxy has resulted in a loss of praxis.

At least the Bruce Lee Pater Noster prevents anyone from holding hands in the liturgy! ;-)

Gordo

Gosh is that all it was! This reminded me of that now ex-Dominican Matthew Fox and his 'spirituality' which was a mish mash of anything and everything but Christianity. so nothing new there folks you saw all this up close in the USA when Fr Matthew was doing his thing. I was surprised that anyone was still interested is that sort of thing these days. One can but prays for such misguided people.

ICXC
NIKA

I have a great idea... we'll have a days-long concert/love-in, and... oh, wait, never mind. They already did that and it was called "Woodstock." Maybe someone should inform these gentlemen.

God bless,

Karen

Hi,

Yes, I was there.

Granted, this was not a regular day, it was the day of their annual festival (I do not remember the exact date, but I think it's towards the end of summer or early fall).

It was rather nice (the dance, the Opera-Rock was so-so).

Again, I do not care much for dancing of any kind, because I can barely walk with any grace, let alone dance. But that is the only reason I do not use dance as a religious expression, because I am terrible at it and I think God gave me other gifts I can praise Him better with.

I do think those who are gifted with talent in this area can praise God through it. I do not think it is as suited for the Liturgy as music, because the congregation has a harder time to engage in it, but then again, we do not re-paint the icons, we look at them and through that we find God.

Is it possible to develop this same "spiritual skill", to be able to find God through an artistic expression, using dance as the artistic expression?

I guess this is what those trying out Liturgical dance are trying to answer.

Maybe the answer is "no", but then again maybe it is "yes".

My position is that we have to brave enough to ask ourselves the question and honest enough to answer it.

I am not disregarding tradition, I am just understanding tradition not as something that happened in the past, rather, something that has been happening, is happening today and needs to be passed on to generations to come richer than it was received by the generations past.

If one of our contributions to our faith tradition is the discovery of Liturgical dance as a valid Liturgical expression, fine! If it is the discovery that dance is not really suitable, fine as well!

That's all.

Shalom,
Memo

Brother Memo,

That is the annual Fall Festival which usally happens on my b :rolleyes: day...now I know what you are talking about...great fest...fine olive oil and other products of our Benedictine Brothers...

God willing,I'll be there this year with some grandkids...had to edit...the 5-8 yr group enjoyed it.

PAX

james

My thoughts exactly.

THIS IS PROBABLY A HOAX.

+T+
Michael

There is nothing new to be scandalised over it is Matthew Fox stuff all over again (got the T shirt).

The pics are I agree not referenced in terms of where the photos were taken and we dont even know if the 'friars' are Catholic, or the relevance to be posted on a Byzantine site.

ICXC
NIKA

As Jakub pointed out earlier, the obviously Goth girl (in all black with chunks of fire engine red in her otherwise dark hair, a nose ring, and ear plugs), is sitting in a pentagram with candles at each of the points. Most New-Age Wiccan prayers and ceremonies are loosely adapted from Catholicism, in my observation. I think there is no question at all that these people (whose sheer youth and domestic quarters--a tent?!) are not in union with Rome.

Looks like that water for the tea is being poured from a vodka bottle, too.

And why is the curtain tacked across the bottom of the pillar? What are they trying to hide back there?

I like the creative red and blue bedding. I presume it is to seperate the boys from the girls?

"Bruce Lee Pater Noster" HA!

Gordo, That is a good one. I've had my laugh for the day,thanks.

Peace

Check out Stephen Colbert's take on liturgical dance [youtube.com] !

That was funny!

You put your right hand in,
You put your right hand out,
You put your right hand in,
And you shake it all about,

You do the hokey pokey
and you turn yourself around
That what it's all about.

They ought to make him an Archbishop.

CDL