www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Serbian Orthodox Church vs William Jefferson Clinton

Hilary is even more of a "Tovarish".

Dn. Robert

Dear Deacon Robert, you will get no argument from me on that point! Between her and Nancy Pelosi, I fear for the future of this country.

Alexandr

I am very glad that President Bush will now have to work with a Congress that will actually engage in some real oversight of his administration and will act as a check against what many of us believe to have been excessive use of executive power over the past six years.

That very same "excessive use of executive power" is what has kept the forces of abortion, homosexuality and stem cell research at bay for the past 6 years. The floodgates of sin have been opened and the demonic hordes will soon be at your door. When your child brings home a book from second grade entitled "Sally has 2 Mommies", or your teenage daughter is encouraged to have an abortion by her high school authorities without your consent, well, you will only have the American people to blame. "Ye shall reap what you sow".

Alexandr, who by the way, is no fan of the Republicans either. Just the better of 2 bad choices.

Dear Alexandr:
Please explain to me when President Bush has brought an end to abortion-I completely missed out on that. The Republicans, as a whole, don't care about ending abortion-if they did, they would not limit there condemnations of it to campaign season. As for your other issues, the Republicans are a mixed bag as well. Also, I would add that President Bush, in his speech yesterday, has proved himself to be dishonest-something many of us have known all along. When asked about the timing of the resignation of Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and the fact that a few days before the election, he had told reporters that Secretary Rumsfeld would remain in office until the end of President Bush's term, President Bush insisted that the resignation of Secretary Rumsfeld was not in reaction to the beating Republicans took at the polls, but that it was in the works when the President was recently asked about whether Secretary Rumsfeld was leaving and he admitted to having lied to the reporters. While I can understand why you make the choice that the Republicans are the lesser of two evils (because in voting for Democrats, I sometimes feel that I'm choosing the lesser of evils), I really don't understand why it is that President Bush gets a free pass from all the sins he has committed in executing the office of the President. The fact that we will now have Nancy Pelosi as the Speaker of the House in a few months is largely the fault of President Bush and the Republicans who have controlled Congress in the last few years. All the pundits are saying that his was more of a repudiation of President Bush than a public embrace of the Democratic Pary. Also, I find your use of the term "tovarish" as a title for President Clinton and Senator Clinton to be offensive and it is a violation of the rule on this Forum that in referring to those in public office we use the appropriate titles of their offices. Lastly, I am deeply offended at your use of "demonic hordes." While I do not endorse the choices they make, I friends and family members who are homosexuals-you have no right to refer to them as "demonic hordes." They are made in the image of God just as you and I are and they are loved by God just as you and I are, and though they may be of a different nature, the sins committed by you and me are offensive to God just as those sins committed by homosexuals. I believe that your use of this language calls for an apology.
Sincerely,
Ryan

We're between a rock and a hard place. The Republicans did a bad job, and deserve to be fired. They abandoned the principles that got them there in the first place.They did little on the "life" issues. As to the war, I could be wrong, but I'm afraid that Pat Buchanan's take is correct. He points out that most of the "neoconservatives" that GW surrounded himself with had been advisors to Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu in the late '90's. They are all enthusiastic Zionists (and former Trotskyites). They had advised Netanhyahu that it is in the best interests of Israel to "take out" Iraq, Iran, and Syria. Buchanan expressed the suspicion that the "9/11" event provided an opportunity for the "neocons" to get the U.S. to pursue those goals, doing for Israel what she would be normally doing for herself. Now we are stuck with this impossible situation, and getting extricated is going to be a real problem. Most Arabs, even the Christians, had already resented the fact that we supported the establishment, by force, of the nation of Israel, in the first place. GW's foreign policy of "making the world safe from terrorism" sounds more like something Woodrow Wilson or FDR would have come up with, as opposed to Robert Taft, or Ronald Reagan. This is way too "open-ended" for traditional military strategists. The American people are not into foreign policy adventurism. On top of that, these "neocons" are "big government" people, a lot like FDR and his successors in the Democratic Party. But, I don't think putting the Democrats in charge is going to resolve anything positively. While some "moderate", and even pro-life Democrats did get elected, the crowd taking over control of leadership in the Congress consists mostly of hard Left, ideological "flamethrowers" like Nancy Pelosi. Many of these people are serious enemies of Christianity. It's possible that we have "thrown out the baby with the bathwater".

Dn. Robert

Shlomo Slavipodvizhnik,

I feel that you have made Aho Michael Thoma's point, that there is nothing after 1999 that condemns Milosevic. Further, if you read the condemnations it is not for the mass murder of the Kosovo Albanians, Croats, and Bosnians but for the ruin that Milosevic brought to Serbia.

Also, your post is why I told Aho Michael Thoma not to bother with this because as you have done, is done the yes we have sinned, but we sinned because others sinned against us.

I too, stand with the Serbian Orthodox and their right to their religious sites, but I do not stand with any group that permits its mass murder and genocide.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Dear Ryan,
Let me address your points one by one.

"Please explain to me when President Bush has brought an end to abortion-I completely missed out on that. The Republicans, as a whole, don't care about ending abortion-if they did, they would not limit there condemnations of it to campaign season."

No the Republicans did not end abortion. What they did was prevent the left from making further inroads against the unbor. Also Mr Bush's, both Jr and Sr supreme court nominations was their greatest contribution towards the fight against the slaughter of the unborn.

"As for your other issues, the Republicans are a mixed bag as well. Also, I would add that President Bush, in his speech yesterday, has proved himself to be dishonest-something many of us have known all along. When asked about the timing of the resignation of Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and the fact that a few days before the election, he had told reporters that Secretary Rumsfeld would remain in office until the end of President Bush's term, President Bush insisted that the resignation of Secretary Rumsfeld was not in reaction to the beating Republicans took at the polls, but that it was in the works when the President was recently asked about whether Secretary Rumsfeld was leaving and he admitted to having lied to the reporters."

Again Ryan, you will get no defense of Mr Bush from me on his foreign policies or the Rumsfield affair. I agree that Mr Bush lied and has lied in the past. That being said, Lying seems to be the norm in Washington. Need I bring up the "I did not have sex with that woman" speech on TV? It's is my observation that when choosing between liars, one chooses the one that lies the least.

"While I can understand why you make the choice that the Republicans are the lesser of two evils (because in voting for Democrats, I sometimes feel that I'm choosing the lesser of evils), I really don't understand why it is that President Bush gets a free pass from all the sins he has committed in executing the office of the President. The fact that we will now have Nancy Pelosi as the Speaker of the House in a few months is largely the fault of President Bush and the Republicans who have controlled Congress in the last few years. All the pundits are saying that his was more of a repudiation of President Bush than a public embrace of the Democratic Pary."

Ryan, nowhere in my postings can one attribute to me the fault of being an aplogist for the Bush Administration. However, as you pointed out, it boils down to making the choice between the lesser of 2 evils. And the fact that people cast their ballot in opposition to something as opposed to being in favor of something is why the likes of Nancy Pelosi will be the 3rd ranking person in the government. It is foolishness on the part of the American people. We didn't like Bush, so lets vote in something worse?

" Also, I find your use of the term "tovarish" as a title for President Clinton and Senator Clinton to be offensive and it is a violation of the rule on this Forum that in referring to those in public office we use the appropriate titles of their offices."

In regards to my use of the word comrade in reference to Mr Clinton, are you aware that that more Serbs died as a direct result of the antics of Mr Clinton than died under the oppression of 50 years of communist rule? Mr Clinton is not in public office and therefore does not fall under the violation of Forum rules.

"Lastly, I am deeply offended at your use of "demonic hordes." While I do not endorse the choices they make, I friends and family members who are homosexuals-you have no right to refer to them as "demonic hordes." They are made in the image of God just as you and I are and they are loved by God just as you and I are, and though they may be of a different nature, the sins committed by you and me are offensive to God just as those sins committed by homosexuals. I believe that your use of this language calls for an apology.
Sincerely,
Ryan"

Ryan, please read my post again. I am not referring to homosexuals as demonic hordes. I was referring to the fact that the agenda of the left has been given a free pass and the very demons are rejoicing over it and soon the evils of the left will be making it's way to mainstream America. What activities homosexuals choose to engage in is between themselves and God. That being said, I have no intention of standing by and allowing homosexuality to be an approved alternative lifestyle. And I do not know how you as a Catholic can either. Homosexuality is a sin, just as pedophilia, extortion, robbery, assault and innumerable others. Shall they be alternative lifestyles as well?

This is much to think about. I fear that America is swirling ever deeper into a cesspool of it's own making. All it will take to fail is for good people to do nothing.

Alexandr

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/065.shtml

Alexandr

Shlomo Alexandr,

I read the article and you have proven my point. I will not argue this topic any longer. As I told Aho Michael Thoma it is like knocking your head against a wall, when trying to point out the sins that Eastern Orthodox, especially the Slavs, have carried out against others.

I will pray for your soul.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

"Ryan, please read my post again. I am not referring to homosexuals as demonic hordes. I was referring to the fact that the agenda of the left has been given a free pass and the very demons are rejoicing over it and soon the evils of the left will be making it's way to mainstream America. What activities homosexuals choose to engage in is between themselves and God. That being said, I have no intention of standing by and allowing homosexuality to be an approved alternative lifestyle. And I do not know how you as a Catholic can either. Homosexuality is a sin, just as pedophilia, extortion, robbery, assault and innumerable others. Shall they be alternative lifestyles as well?"

Alexandr:
I would respond by saying that the "right" in America is plagued with its own evils. The Republican Party, going back to the time of Nixon, has pursued a strategy of appealing to the racist inclinations of many white Americans, particularly in the South. This is reflected in the fact that black Americans-who often tend to be very conservative on social issues-overwhelmingly vote Democratic. The Republican party shows overwhelming preference to the wealthy and to corporations-reflected in the facts that stocks often fall when Democrates prevail in an election. Anyone who doubts that the Republican party is in the back pocket of corporate America needs to examine this fact. The Republican party has consistently and vigorously opposed labor unions; the Catholic Church has repeatedly upheld the rights of workers to bargain collectively through unions. The Repuglican party has consistently opposed increasing minimum wage; the Catholic Church teaches that employers have an obligation to pay employees a wage that can support not only the worker, but the worker's family as well. The Republican party has conducted itself shamefully with respect to the war in Iraq-a war that was justified (at least in part) on the basis of half-truths and lies. The Republican party is trying to lead us down an isolationist, anti-immigrant path-something I find extremely distasteful, and I'm about as American as they get-I have some native American ancestry and some of my European ancestors have been here since the 1600s. I could go on and on, but I don't think that's necessary, and I don't even expect that you agree with me on these points. However, I think that this Forum, which on the whole is extremely right-wing, needs to listen to the voices of its members who are not right-wing. After all, there just might be the possibility that we are right in what we say every once in a while.

As to the question of homosexuality, I would not ask that you, or anyone else, affirm it as an acceptable life style. However, as I stated previously, I have family members and friends who are homosexuals. They are quite familiar with what both Holy Scripture and the Church have to say about homosexual acts. I don't see how we have any hope of persuading them to follow the Church's teaching and trust in God to help them overcome this inclination by calling those who advocate for them in the public square "demonic hordes." I agree with you that "homosexuality is a sin, just as pedophilia, extortion, robbery, assault" are. I would also point out that I try to approach homosexuality using the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Article 6, II, 2357, as a guideline: "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard must be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition." I find your very harsh-I would even dare say hateful-language impossible to reconcile with the teachings of the Catholic Church with respect to how homosexuals are to be treated. Now I'm aware that you, as an Orthodox Christian, are not bound by the CCC. However, I respond with the CCC, because you appealed to me as a Catholic, writing, "What activities homosexuals choose to engage in is between themselves and God. That being said, I have no intention of standing by and allowing homosexuality to be an approved alternative lifestyle. And I do not know how you as a Catholic can either." I would also ask you to consider this-what about those homosexuals who make no claim to being Christian and were not raised as Christians. Until such time as they have been persuaded of the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they have no particular reason to care about what Christians have to say about the morality of their sexuality. How can we possibly have any hope of persuading them of the truth of the Gospel when such vicious language is being used by some Christians when they talk about the Church's teachings concerning sexuality?
Sincerely,
Ryan

Dear Alexandr,

Though I agree with many of your points, I must, in all fairness, ask you to cease referring to the Clintons with sarcastic epithets.

Thanks.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

I agree with Ryan that it is incorrect to refer to a former president as �Comrade� (in any language). I ask Alexandr to be more charitable.

I disagree with Ryan�s comments that the Republicans don�t care about ending abortion. Such a blanket statement is not factual. Placing two new justices on the Supreme Court who will not legislate from the bench will certainly not end abortion but the very fact that the issue of partial-birth abortion (infanticide) was accepted by the Supreme Court gives lie to the idea that Republicans don�t care about abortion. Now there might be just enough votes to keep this form of infanticide illegal. Hopefully will someday lead to closing the loopholes and our country can make progress to guarantee the Right to Life from conception to natural death. Also don�t forget that more good justices that won�t legislate from the bench have been placed on the lower courts. The Democrats have already announced that they will not allow another potential pro-lifer on the Supreme Court or any of the lower courts.

I do agree with Ryan that President Bush should not get a free pass for his mistakes. He has not used enough force to destroy the jihadists in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere. He has not protected the border. He has not intervened militarily in Sudan (diplomacy over many years has solved nothing). It�s pretty clear that the Republicans lost the Congress not because they were too conservative but because they were too liberal.

It is my opinion that anyone who votes for a candidate that is pro-abortion when there is pro-life candidate on the ballot who has a chance of winning has the blood of the innocents on his hands.

Since this topic has wandered I am closing it. Please feel free to start new discussions on these topics.

Admin