The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
jsunseri, Andrew_the_Ascetic, Giovanni1, SeekingTruth, friendly_pilgrim
5,863 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (griego catolico, 1 invisible), 79 guests, and 23 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,191
Posts415,118
Members5,863
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186
I thought that would get your attention. Now to place this in context.

The partial quote is from Elie Wiessel when he was interviewed regarding the Holocaust, he said, "All the Jews were victims and all the killers were Christian." At one level this is true. At another level it is false. Yet, we must understand both levels in order to find truth and peace. Whenever I show the film to my Comparative Religion class that includes this quote it takes the Christians in the room by surprise and nearly takes their breath away. It has a similar effect upon me even though I've heard it many times. He is correct in the sense that a somewhat Christian culture produced the impetus and even the tolerance for such barbarity. He is wrong in the sense that no devout Christian would ever tolerate such behavior if they had the power to stop it. We know that the Church successfully protected hundreds of thousands of Jews during this horrific period of history.

But the issue is very much real today. To what extent are Christians culpable for the moral filth distributed throughout the world and the murders of babies that occur regularly in nominally Christian countries? To what extent are Muslims culpable to the murder and butchery done in the name of Islam against millions of people over their entire history? These questions must be seriously confronted if both truth and peace have a chance.

Here is what I wrote on another forum on a related issues. I think it's appropos.

"I haven't noticed that the Pro-gay agenda is hurting anyone economically. I think the AFA's approach is wrong headed. We haven't lived in a Christian country for several decades and the argument could be made that we never have. One of the reasons devout Muslims give for their hatred or at least distaste of American culture is that they identify our exportation of moral filth with Christianity. One of the reasons we have hatred or distaste toward Islam is our indentification of murder with Islam. There is just enough truth in both misperceptions to make everyone suspicious.

In any event we live in a world that does not respect the things of God in general though they know the things of God because nature teaches it to them. St. Paul knew that a long time ago. This knowledge has been reiterated many times over the centuries. Some come to Christ because they see the truths of God in nature and desire to serve God. Some reject God because they see God clearly but reject Him. Hasn't it always been so?

Ford will not suffer for their anti-God, pro-homosexual stands any more than most corporations in America which have taken similar stands. That does not make their stand right and ours wrong. It simply means that they have their reward. We will someday have ours."

CDL

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Well, Mr. Wiesel needs to brush up on his history, because neither were all the victims of the Holocaust Jews, nor all the perpetrators Christians.

I guess he forgot about the non-Jewish Gypsies, homosexuals, intellectuals, Christian clerics, handicapped persons, deformed persons, and the mentally ill. But I suppose it would be easy to do so when one is as ethnocentric and self-pitying at Mr. Wiesel apparently is.

Logos Teen

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Not to mention that many of the members of the leadership of National Socialism were avowed atheists, I believe. Social Darwinism and the State formed the religion of the Nazis.

To say that "all the killers were Christian" is innacurate. All the killers were Gentiles and socialists, however.

Gordo

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,390
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,390
I believe that some Jews even, in an effort to save their own lives, turned against their communities and worked with the Nazis.

We also do not know Hitler's ancestry, and the question of who his grandfather was (and the possibility that he was Jewish) was of such concern to Hitler that he wrote the Jewish law to exclude Jesus and himself. There is much speculation over this fact to this day, and while we can't say he was 1/4 Jewish, we can't say he wasn't either.

I believe this point is relevant because, as CDL points out, we cannot always tell the wheat from the tares, or amongst the wheat separate them from the chaff. There are those among us who sow discord and untruths. That they are able to get away with it now does not mean that they will be rewarded for eternity, much less does it mean that what they do is right.

The title of "Christian" or "Jew" or "saved" or "born-again" does not guarantee salvation or right choices. It is in the actions that we can see the differences, and it is only after the seeds have taken root and grown can we see what it is we have a field of. The holocaust was not Christianity ganging up on Judaism, but a prideful and arrogant man using Christianity as a prop to get rid of everyone he thought beneath him, including Jews, Gypsies, the mentally or physically ill, those with the wrong color eyes or hair or skin, those with ethics or values or morals, those who spoke against what he did. In this way, it is very wise to compare abortion or Muslim terrorism to the Holocaust because they too stem from the same arrogance that allows some man to believe he knows who is worthy of life or death. That we are alive at the same time and use the same title to define ourselves (Christian, Muslim, Jew) does not indicate our own salvation any more than the title assures us of the perpetrator's. What we can look at is the actions.

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 192
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 192
Interestingly enough, last night I finished watching a wonderful video about the Jews in Assissi during the Holocost.

It was a wonderful movie, based on actual events. Because of the intervention of a good Bishop, a wonderful Padre, and the nuns at a monistary, many, many Jews were saved in Assisi.

At the end of the movie, it stated actual facts about the persons and events that took place. It stated that in Assisi, 80% of the Italian Jews were saved -- which is the exact opposite in the rest of the world at that time. Of couse this is signicatant, given that Assisi is mostly Catholic. At the Vatican, many Jews were hidden, or helped to relocate, and again, many lives were saved.

I think this is a wonderful testamony to our faith - Our Faith in action. I think it a good reflection on Christians, and what they really would do to help their brother - even those who are not Christian.

I wish I could remember the name of the movie and the names of the people involved, so I could recommend it to you.

I will try to remember to write it down when I go home, and post again tomorrow. I think it to be a video that every Catholic ought to see. Maybe by my vauge discription, someone else knows what movie it is?

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
A significant number of leading Nazis repudiated Christianity and wished to revive one or another form of paganism instead.

Fr. Serge

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,440
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,440
Dear CDL you quoted Elie Wiessel as saying:

Quote
All the Jews were victims and all the killers were Christian.
I say:

Actually some of the killers might have been Christian in the nations that were allied or occupied by Germany, but the Nazi's weren't. They were pagans and were heavily involved in the occult. Even the swastika was an occultic symbol, and a certain known 'warlock' of the nineteenth century in Austria, made the sign of the swastika (with candles I believe), in the ground outside of Vienna where Adolph Hitler would soon be born.

You said about Elie Wiesel:

Quote
He is correct in the sense that a somewhat Christian culture produced the impetus and even the tolerance for such barbarity. He is wrong in the sense that no devout Christian would ever tolerate such behavior if they had the power to stop it. We know that the Church successfully protected hundreds of thousands of Jews during this horrific period of history.
I say:

The RCC certainly did protect many Jews and at the risk of their own lives. I can only ask those Jews that condemn the RCC if they themselves would risk their lives, and the lives of their children and families, in order to help those that are not Jews. There is an old movie with Gregory Peck as a Vatican priest. That Irish priest, (can't recall his name), continuously risked his life to save Jews...and was deliberately hounded by the top Nazi.

Pope Pius XII also commanded the nuns at the hospitals to take in as many Jews as possible...and again it was at the risk of their own lives.

I would also consider the new revelations about the famine and genocide of ten million people in 1933 under Stalin. The same year Hitler came in power. Now knowing that the Bolsheviks were predominantly Jews, does that make them culpable in the murder of those millions? I can't help but wonder if there were Germans that might have died in that famine, and if that might have made Adolph Hitler turn against the Jews even more readily?

You said:
Quote
But the issue is very much real today. To what extent are Christians culpable for the moral filth distributed throughout the world and the murders of babies that occur regularly in nominally Christian countries?
I say:

I asked this question many, many years ago. I recall going to, (of all places), the island of Patmos where Saint John wrote the Apocalypse. There was an American homosexual parading around with a tee shirt that was so obscene, that I can't even mention what was on it.

I also recall going to my mother's island and seeing post cards that would certainly be considered pornography...and in front of children mind you. I couldn't help but wonder if we Americans, the exporters of all that filth... filth that we ourselves would not allow on our streets, will pay for it someday? frown

Our problem is that we export our junk, and other cultures will take it and interpret it in their own fashion...and that fashion might be much worse than anything we ourselves would do. Yet these people are copying what they perceive to be our American culture. eek

Zenovia

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186
Zenovia and others,

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. One of the reasons I posted this is to try to look for a bridge between decent peace loving Muslims and decent peace loving Christians. I doubt that much serious evangelization is going to take place without some mutual respect. I have taught many Muslim students in the various Comparative Religion classes I've taught over the years. Most of the time it is possible to speak respectfully of each others religion. Ocassionally I get a student who so identifies our nation's cultural perversions with Christianity that it is almost impossible to get past that. At the same time I wonder why Western society is so perverse when it has had some a long Christian influence. Moreover, one wonders why many Muslims are so murderous and hateful while many are peace loving and kind.

CDL

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 838
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 838
"Even the swastika was an occultic symbol, and a certain known 'warlock' of the nineteenth century in Austria, made the sign of the swastika (with candles I believe), in the ground outside of Vienna where Adolph Hitler would soon be born."

Actually the oppisite is true.

You need to look at this site:
http://eggs-files.tripod.com/pysanky_4.html#SOLAR

and get your information correct


the ikon writer
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186
Quote
Originally posted by Medved:
"Even the swastika was an occultic symbol, and a certain known 'warlock' of the nineteenth century in Austria, made the sign of the swastika (with candles I believe), in the ground outside of Vienna where Adolph Hitler would soon be born."

Actually the oppisite is true.

You need to look at this site:
http://eggs-files.tripod.com/pysanky_4.html#SOLAR

and get your information correct
Medved,

You rascal you wink You have spoiled one of the most enjoyable falsehoods people have ever enjoyed. The Swastika as most people know is also a mythical sign from India. Hitler was a nutcase who worshipped Tuetonic deities and received a twice daily dose of cocain and other drugs which gave him the courage to act out his insane fantasies.

The real problem for those who are sane is "Why did most Germans happily or at least wilingly follow him?"

CDL

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,045
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,045
I don't know if Mr. Hitler worshipped Teutonic deities, he usually rolled his eyes when he heard that such clowns as Rosenberg, Himmler, and the rest went off to a relgious loony land. but as far as the swatika is concerned, devotees of Kali sign themselvs with the swastika as we would with the Cross. oh, there is a website calling themselves "friends of the swastika". these folks are tring to exonerate the sign from its association with the Third Reich.
Much Love,
Jonn

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,716
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,716
Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
Not to mention that many of the members of the leadership of National Socialism were avowed atheists, I believe. Social Darwinism and the State formed the religion of the Nazis.

To say that "all the killers were Christian" is innacurate. All the killers were Gentiles and socialists, however.

Gordo
Thousands of socialists and social democrats fought and died in the struggle against fascism.

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 192
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 192
In my previous post, I promissed to give the title of the movie I was referring to.

It was "The Assisi Underground". http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0088746/
I checked it out at a local parish library.

Although now I read my post is a bit off subject from the original posters intentions, I still recommend this film as something everyone should see if possible. It is a long film - excellent for watching on a Sunday afternoon.

Peace,
Mary

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 135
BANNED
active
Offline
BANNED
active
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 135
Well, in a sense, Elie Wiesel, should have understood that in the case of Russia the Jews got their revenge. Was not Marx 'justified' by Darwinian theory coupled with nihilism, and resulted in the Bolshevism that then resulted in the Stalinist 'Ukrainian Holocaust' (4+ million starved on purpose) and the destruction of Holy Rus and upwards of 100 million persons of Slavic decent, as well as Kazahks, Mongols, Uzbeks, Germans, etc, etc. This is all not to mention the Nazi destruction of 10's of millions. Evil is evil. Should we go back to the 4th 'Crusade' and the sacking of Constantinople, and the West's abandoning the Eastern Capital when the Turks overran her...despite pleas of help. Yes, that was done by 'christians', too. And that, to their own contemporaries, also called 'christian'. Muslims kill their own. All societies do, and always have. "Peoples is peoples" so the quotes goes. More's the pity, mik


Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5