www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Eastern Christians and the War Between the States?????

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Johanam ]

Dear Johanam
Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!
It is interesting that you are questioning the roles of Byzantines in the War Between the States. Originally, a company from Shenandoah PA formed to enter the war. However, on their way south, they first stopped in Passaic for an all-night vigil. Now, since all the antiphons were taken in their entirety, the lengthy service resulted in them missing the first seven ecumenical battles. The remaining fifteen battles were never seen as ecumenical by the south and as such were never considered binding on their forces.
A splinter group from north Parma formed and made it as far as Fort Pitt, also in Pennsylvania. They wandered forty days around the three rivers until, tired and exhausted, they rested at the bottom of a large hill. During a large rainstorm, the shop at the top of the hill (called Pirogues from Heaven) became dislodged from its foundation, resulting in pirogues literally falling from the sky onto the troops below. Now, I don't know if you have ever tried to fight a war stuffed with pirogues, but they were not able to do very much.
There were some battle orders given to both companies. Unfortunately, the question of translation hampered any chance of success. The men questioned whether they would be paid for ages of ages, and when exactly the pay date would be. To compound the situation, the only direct orders they had were given silently.
They faced many obstacles, including the reception by their fellow northerners. They called themselves the Byzantine Army, but the main northern forces were not sure of their affiliation. They attempted calling themselves "southerners in union with the northern President", but that did not help the situation.
The complete history is documented in church bulletin #1, but that is a little hard to find now. Mostly the exploits of these hearty souls is something you can only pick up at late evening campfires at deacon retreats.
This is what I recall. If my facts are not totally accurate, I apologize in advance.
Fr Deacon El

Glory to Jesus Christ!

LOL Father Deacon El! At first I thought it was totally serious, but then as I got into it, I realized what a brilliant parody it was. God Bless you!

IC XC NIKA,
-Nik!
"Come visit my website or something"

Dear Fr. Deacon El,

I guess with all those Pirogues in their bellies, those soldiers must have fought the very first "Battle of the Bulge" the next day!

Actually, there were "shadows" of Apostolic Christianity present throughout the history of the Civil War, especially among the Methodists.

As we know, the Methodists were very interested in holiness and how God sanctifies humanity.

One Southern officer who was a High Church Methodist actually cut pieces of cloth from the body of a Methodist preacher who had died in the odour of sanctity (I forget his name) and distributed pieces to each of his men prior to a battle.

There were two Methodist martyrs who died for the cause of abolition.

One of them, I'd have to refer to my Methodist sources which I don't have with me right now, was held in such disdain by his killers that his body was tossed up on the roof of a store to be submitted to the elements - children even played with his bones!

This is really stretttttchchchching things, but John Wesley once apparently looked into being consecrated a bishp by the Greek Orthodox Church.

As I said, a real stretch!

Alex

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Johanam ]

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Johanam ]

This is great! I am a super history buff and The War Between the States is my favorite.
There was a Ukrainian Orthodox general from Ukraine who was I believe was a Major General in the Western Theatre (like Tennessee). He was one of the Federal's (Union's) more repsected generals. His name was Basil Turchyn.

There was a Polish regiment fighting for the North. They looked like Zouaves (www.zouave.org [zouave.org] for pics) but had all white uniforms with red trim. I wouldn't be suprised if there were Eastern Catholics from Ukraine or the Carpathians in that unit. Also, I have seen regimental rosters with Slavic names mostly from Pennsylvania and New York.
Hope it helps.
ukrainiancatholic

p.s. Maybe you will find some Eastern Catholic in researching the Irish Brigade :p

Catholics in the South, including Maryland, tended to follow the actions of their neighbors. However, it can also be said that in Louisiana and Mississippi, most Catholics were for emancipation. In the North, the Irish were very resistant to conscription. In some towns they rioted. Peter Doyle, the lover of the American poet Walt Whitman, initially fought for the South, went AWOL, and then claimed innocence as his birth in Ireland made him a Crown subject.

German Catholics, living in large numbers in Cincinnati, Philadelphia and St. Louis, were absolutely fanatical pro-North and pro-abolition. They truly thought the southern slaverowners were the most barbaric persons imaginable, participated in the underground railroad and supported Lincoln.

I don't beleive any measurable group of eastern Christians had yet come here.

[ 08-02-2002: Message edited by: Axios ]

I love the parodies. Since our people did not come over to this country in the 1880's we did not participate in the War of the 1860's (whatever name you want to call it.)

(Great-great Grand)daddy, what did you do doing the War (Between the States)?

The wife of my maternal grandmother's nephew (whew!) was very much into genealogy. While investigating the history of that side of the family she was told by her mother-in-law (my grandmother's sister) that she remembered sitting around as a child listening to her grandfather's tales of the Civil War.

He recounted that due to his actions at the the Battle of Gettysburg the North not only won this battle but won the war.

Upon further investigation it was found that he really didn't win the war, nor did he win the battle of Gettysburg. In fact, he wasn't anywhere near the battle. Instead, he was "doing time" in a Federal jail for desertion.

It seems that he joined Union forces. (He was from Garrett Co. in Western, Md.) However, like most young men, he thought the war would only last a few weeks or a few months at the most. And when it continued on and there was work to be taken care of back home, he up and left. Guess he didn't make it too far.

>>> Sorry, I can't help with the Slavic-connection. I'm of Irish and German ancestory... and some American Indian. But that's another "story."

[ 08-02-2002: Message edited by: moncobyz ]

Deacon El,

Did they fight wearing lace or silk? Did the commanding generals or leaders lead them into battle up front in the middle or enter into the arena at the very end?

I heard legends about that Pirogues from Heaven incident. It was true. Can you imagine the scare they gave to the others wearing prune in their hair? Brrrrr.

[ 08-02-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Johanam ]

Yeah, right. I can tell you, in that case, Eastern Catholics are the source of alot of our problems. They all voted for FDR! Of course, even today the Catholic Church still pushes for gun control and 'big government'.

Axios

Dear Friends,

ISTM that any society that holds people in slavery demonizes itself. Whether Nazi, Fascist, Communist, Saudi, Sudanese, or Confederate, they are demonic by their own conduct.

That the South for 100+ years refused their black Christian neighbors equal legal and social rights extended their historical disgrace. That many northern Catholics shared their racist views is not good either. The War may have been "Civil", but the peace hardly was.

Sadly, it appears that the friends of slavery and segregation still maintain an outpost on this forum. I will pray for those who believe in Jeff Davis and Bobby Lee.

As for me, I may be unconstitutional in Liberal eyes, but I believe in "ONE NATION UNDER GOD, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL".

Thank God for the courage of Abraham Lincoln, Ulysees Grant, William T. Sherman, and their army of a million men, the original "million man march", who believed in that pledge before it was written.

None of them perfect, all of them sinners, who built a nation from a collection of states and nationalities. And their legacy, in the 20th Century, saved the world from the Nazis, Fascists, and Communists.

As for the effectiveness of textbooks, obviously, some students still don't learn their lessons. And I have heard many complaints about the quality of public schools.

--------------------------


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By the way, to those who live south of the South, we are all "Yanquis".

St. Katherine Drexel, pray for all of us !

St. Juan Diego, pray for us !


Have a Blessed Day !!!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

[ 08-02-2002: Message edited by: Two Lungs ]

St. Peter Claver, o.p.n.

St. Martin of the New World, o.p.n.

St. Benedict the Moor, o.p.n.

Father Horace McKenna, o.p.n.

St. Pope Victor I, o.p.n.

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Johanam ]

I know. Now let us turn to another great topic. The evil and wrongheadedness of the American Revolt in 1776.

Had I been alive in 1776 I would probably have been a Tory.

Dan L

I certainly think slavery is a very evil thing and think that perhaps Lincoln was right when he considered that perhaps the Civil War was God's judgment on this nation for slavery; however, I don't see how any Catholic could say much in favor of General Sherman. His brutal actions against civilians in his march through Georgia violate all that the Catholic Church teaches about just war and the treatment of civilians. Also, as a resident of the Shenandoah Valley, I have nothing good to say of Gen. Philip Sheridan, who did similarly bad things in the Valley, though I don't believe his soldiers generally raped any women...he is the guy who later said "the only good Indian is a dead Indian"!

I also would like to defend the characters of Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee. Both were serious and committed Christians. Davis attended Catholic school as a child and considered becoming Catholic but did not. He was a rather high church Anglican and was admired by Pope Pius IX, who sent him a rosary and a crown of thorns that the Pope had made himself while Davis was imprisoned by Federal troops in Ft. Monroe, Virginia. Robert E. Lee was an evangelical Episcopalian who had a deep prayer life and committment to Jesus Christ. He abhorred slavery and freed all his slaves. He also opposed seccession and was offered command of the Union armies by Lincoln but refused on the grounds that he could never raise the sword against his native state of Virginia. (To a Virginian, he is right up there with Washington, Jefferson, Patrick Henry, James Madison, and all the rest.) It was hard for him to take this stance, as his father Lighthorse Harry Lee was a noted Revolutionary War general and R.E. Lee was married to the granddaughter of Martha Washington (and thus the stepgranddaughter of the Father of our country.) Lee has been admired for his sterling Christian character even by people who think he was on the "wrong side."

As to the alleged wrongness of the American Revolution, well, I suppose if you believe in the "Divine Right of Kings", yes, but I don't buy that. I believe government derives its powers from the just consent of the governed and if a government is oppressive, the people have the right to change it. But even if I did believe that the colonists should have stayed loyal to the King as the lawful authority constituted by God, the fact is that George III was not the lawful King of England. Neither was William & Mary, Anne, or the first 2 Georges, either! Don't forget that James II was deposed and replaced by his Protestant daughter Mary and her husband William only because he was a Catholic. At the deaths of Mary and her successor and sister Anne without heirs, their Catholic half-brother ("the Old Pretender") was the lawful King, but because he was Catholic, he was passed over for George I of the House of Hanover in Germany, a grandson of Elizabeth, daughter of James I, but in no way the lawful King and a man who couldn't even speak English! Refusing to accept the House of Hanover wasn't just a Catholic thing, either, the Scots resented the House of Stuart being set aside and rebelled, also, there was a group of principled high-church Anglicans who felt that since they had sworn allegiance to James II, they could not recognize any other sovereign. They were called the "non-jurors" and the holy and devout Thomas Ken, was perhaps their best exemplar.

I agree with the person who had high praise for the Methodists. John Wesley was certainly a saintly man and very sacramental in his theology. He was one of the few Protestants of his day who was not anti-Catholic.

Martha, American by birth, Virginian by the grace of God!

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Johanam ]

To add to Deacon El's recollection:

For the most part the Byzantine army was ineffectual because they showed up 13 days later than everyone else, thought the day started at sundown, and, when stressed, were not ashamed to change allegience.

Once, they were ordered to march on New Years and they didn't show up until September!

They tended not to side with the North or the South but curiously preferred the East.

Whenever, their general yelled fire, they couldn't decide whether to kneel or stand and so often ended up shooting each other. Fortunately the officers survived as they would choose this moment for a deep prostration.

They were however, masters of tactical trickery.

There are no photographs or even pictorial representations of this secret army as, wherever they went, they constructed a wall between the observers and the participants.

Whenever they showed up, there was so much smoke in the air, no one could see anything.

Many were known to leave early.

But their most famous maneuver:

From a distance, the enemy, seeing them crossing themselves backwards thought they must be retreating...


El, we missed you this past Sunday...

John

Hmmm. This thread's development must be the result of the heat-wave in the East.

While it's true that there was the basic issue of Federalism versus States' Rights, the focus was on the ability of one person to direct the life of another, whether through slavery or indentured servitude (of Europeans).

It's true that many European-Americans in the north didn't particularly have a concern about African-Americans, but they felt that the "country" was best represented by a Federal State that could stand up to the dynastic European monarchies which they hated from the depths of their hearts since they or their parents had been direct victims of state-sponsored oppression.

Although born in Massachusetts, and a dyed-in-the-wool Bostonian --- and damn proud of it! -- I have ancestral roots in Pennsylvania and my Great-Great Grandfather fought at Antietam and Sharpsburg. (He died in Philadelphia from wounds a year after the war. I wonder if I should ask for 'reparations' as some currently suggest?)

I've lived in Virginia for more than 25 years, and have had the opportunity to look at the Virginians of that time. I'm not quite so convinced about Jefferson Davis, but I can assure you that I have never found a more moral man than Robert E. Lee. His writings and his behavior show clearly that he was a man of principle -- his moral conclusions guided his behavior. Is this not the ultimate definition of a good Christian? He examined his conscience, came to a conclusion, and followed his conscience. What a model!!

As for "our peoples", I can't say much about the Slavs since I think that there were really very few here at the time. My people (on my mother's side), the Greeks, were here, but in very small numbers. Although I am sure that some were involved in the hostilities, but I suspect that most were just trying to survive as small merchants or as commissaries of supplies. I find it absolutely remarkable, however, that the first Treasurer of the Confederacy was Jewish and from South Carolina. It was, of course, the constant desire of ALL immigrants to be considered American and not just 'some damned foreigner'.

[I note that many non-European citizens and green-card residents of the US have filled out the most recent census forms as: "white". It's the same desire: "I consider myself American and will designate myself as American in every way possible". Their incredible love of this country and their absolute desire to be identified with the United States should shame the rest of us Euro-Americans perforce of their zeal. It is truly humbling and should serve as a lesson to us all in understanding the wonderful gift that has been given to us to be Americans living in freedom and self-determination. My maternal grandparents were saints for giving me this gift.]

Blessings, y'all!!

not really. Again, Lincoln was the friend of democracy.