www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall att. galico-russophiles

Brian, I had lunch with a priest friend who teaches at the Orientalium this past Sunday (he also came for Liturgy).

The Russicum is alive and well, but is primarily a residence for students at the Orientalium and other colleges. During the school year they have fairly regular liturgical services. The priests who serve there come and go to a certain degree but those who assist and are on the staff of the Orientalium are there during the entire school year. As far as academics are concerned the Russicum has pretty much integrated with the Orientalium. For example Father Taft has all of his classes at the Orientalium now but several of the students reside and have services at the Russicum. They do still follow the Synodal (Nikonian) Recension liturgically.

yes. to tell the truth i expected more, but it can change. they don't even do all night vigil on saturday night, what's that all about?

ilya

I dunno, you need to go set them straight, Gavshev...

Like anyplace if they have a few devoted hardcores it can be turned around. There HAS to be a place outside of the monasteries where the vsenoshchnoe bdenie is served in its entirety. All of those liturgy students around, you would think something could be done.

Yes, but they gave up the Government stuff and the worldly goods and lands for something worthwhile.

Ilya,
Where can you get a nice, small thing to post? Or if it's a large - um, animal - or whatever - could it be a small picture instead of scary mammoth ones? Some of us startle easily, you know!
c of s

I would just like to know how they post them?

I know just how you feel Rose !!!

I have received a PM telling me how to do it - now I must see what I can do to join in the fun.

mebbe it will work or on the other hand being me - it probably won't.

My problem is finding small pics to use - I haven't worked out yet how to re-size things.

a Anhelyna

Hey, way cool, I just figured it out.

Thanks!

Me, I am back again!

For our young, or maybe not so young, friend the Patron Saint of Skaters. I also found that she is the Patron Saint of the long suffering.

Lidwina

Born: April 18, 1380

Died: April 14, 1433

Canonized: March 14, 1890

Feast Day: April 14

Patron Saint of: skaters

Also known as Lidwina of Shiedam, Lydwid and Lidwid.

Saint Lidwina was born of a poor family in Schiedam, Holland, in 1380. At a very young age, little Lidwina found herself totally devoted to the Blessed Virgin and was often found praying before an image of Our Lady of Schiedam. In 1395, Lidwina had a skating accident that resulted in broken ribs. Unfortunately, there was no one in the town that knew how to care for this type of injury and gangrene quickly set in and spread throughout her body. The pain from the infection was severe and lasted for years. Because the infection was internal without any outward signs that the that townsfolk could attribute her agony to, she was believed to be under the influence of the devil. Trying to trick her, she was given an unconsecrated Eucharistic Host, but she knew it right away.

During her suffering, Saint Lidwina was given the gift of visions. In one of the visions that she did share, she said she saw a rosebush and an inscription that read: "When this shall be in bloom, your suffering will be at an end." In the spring of 1433, she said that she saw the rosebush of her vision. On Easter morning of that year, she had a vision of Jesus administering the Sacrament of Extreme Unction. She died on the 14th of April of that year. There were several miracles recorded by those that visited her in her bedroom during her suffering.

Wow! She made history in a lot of ways...The first known case of MS, however, probably predates Charcot by many centuries. In 1390, a young Dutch woman known as Saint Lidwina fell while ice skating and subsequently displayed a progressive neurological disorder that kept her confined to bed until her death 34 years later. Prominent physicians of the day prescribed a variety of "medicines" and herbs, however, the Duke of Holland's physician recognized Saint Lidwina's condition as one that could not be cured. "The disease," he said, "comes from the hand of God." He advised no treatment, predicting it would only "impoverish her father."

interesting..
http://www.mscare.com/a0106/page_05.htm

Hey Ilya,

You say that since Lubomyr is moving to Kyiv- he should return to the (true) Kyivan Traditions- well then maybe the Patriarchal Throne should be in Brampton :p

-uc

C of S, that's just a nice, friendly Nubian goat extending for a sweet kiss.

From VHarkins, Cleveland, Alabama

Im new to this place,

VHarkins is that you? You are right it is a different time of the day, but let me know. There aren't very many V Harkins running around Alabama.

Rose

Dear Ilya Romanovich,

Although I'm not a Russophile, I wish you well on your journey.

Wouldn't it be something if, after some time at the Russicum with Fr. Taft, you returned as a "Ukrainophile?"

As Professors Kosarenko and Maximovych and others have said, "Ukraine" comes not from "Okrayini" or the "borderlands." There is also an excellent discussion of this in Fr. Sluzar's book of sermons and talks - he was of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada.

It comes from "Ukrayaty" or to "cut out" as the lands of the Ukrainians/Roxolanians were often invaded and had to be "cut out" from enemy occupation by them.

This term was used officially in the Ipatiiv Litopys in 1187 and on five other subsequent times to describe country of the people and it was the name the people themselves called themselves by.

The pejorative term "khakhol" is actually a Mongolian term where "khakh" means "blue" and "ulo" means "yellow" - it was popularized as a term for Ukrainians not by the Muscovite Russians, but by the Mongolians themselves. I've had opportunity to confirm this with both Ukrainian and Mongolian visiting scholars.

"Rus'" most likely comes from the name of the river "Ros'" and was used to describe the growing and expanding city-state empire of Kyivan Rus'.

It was adopted by the northern tribes led by some of St Yaroslav the Wise' 12 sons and was kept by them in the form "russky." But it was only in the time of Peter the First that Ukrainian administrators working in his employ convinced him to discard "Muscovite" and use "Rus'." I've seen this described in at least two unpublished doctoral dissertations as well.

The fact that the poem you cite contained such statements is due to the fact of Russophilism of the Muscovite variety that was, in those days, quite prevalent among Ukrainian Greek-Catholic clergy.

To this day, as Met. Ilarion Ohienko has shown in his linguistic studies, the Ukrainian Catholic Church continues to employ Russian/Muscovite accentology in its publications. Ohienko did an extensive study of Ukrainian accentology and his work is well-respected by Ukrainian language professors in Ukraine today.

There was a good reason for Russophilism in the Ukrainian Catholic Church at one time, according to Ohienko.

But not any longer today.

Good luck and be careful with Fr. Taft.

I understand he has a temper that he vents on those who think they might like to possibly become Orthodox.

Alex

The very definition of 'russophile' has so many various interpretations and connotations amongst Ukrainians and non-Ukrainians that even putting a finger on it can be difficult. This term has been used many ways since the early 20th century. It has even been used historically even by other Slavs (such as Poles) as a label for those who glorify their historical Kyivan roots (Rus') since from the outside many see Kyiv not as Ukraine but as part of Russia.

I also see a liturgical use of this term distinct from any political one. Many of those wishing to be faithful to the Kyivan liturgical tradition, removing latinizations, returning to the Ordo and other more traditional liturgical norms sugested by Metropolitan Sheptytsky were or are often painted with the title "russophile" while politically they may be very Ukrainian or even disinterested in the political aspect. Many of our more vostochnik clergy and laity have been labelled as russophiles for wanting to be closer to the Kyivan tradition and shedding the latinizations that have accreted onto the Ukrainian Catholic liturgical usage, especially since the Synod of Zamosc.

Some of our martyr Bishops such as Nicholas Charnetsky, Vasyl Velychkovsky and even Metropolitan Sheptytsky himself wishing to be faithful to our Byzantine tradition were labelled this way. Bishop Khomyshyn certainly considered 'byzantinism' synonomous with 'russophilism', considered those attempting to be faithful to the Kyivan tradition as potentially heretical, and opposed Metropolitan Sheptytsky's work on the Ordo.

Another more political meaning of the term 'russophile' is, obviously, closer political relationship with Russia. After Viktor Chernomyrdin's recent public statement that Russia would not in any way apologize for the famine, http://foreignpolicy.org.ua/eng/headlines/foreign/bilateral/index.shtml?id=1886, it is difficult for me to see this as a positive development of the Ukraine/Russia relationship nor a positive step by Russia in acknowledging the past sins of Soviet era atrocities directed from Moscow. It seems perhaps they still do consider Ukrainians as "little Russians".

So to make a long post short it depends on what one means by "russophile". If it means loving Kyivan Rus', or desiring a more Kyivan liturgical usage, that is one thing. If it means politically clinging onto Russia's coat tails, that is another.

Slava Ukraina.

While romantic notions like that float around, more mainstream historians like Michael Hrushevsky don't suggest anything like that.

He writes in "A History of Ukraine,"
"The rich wilderness had gained the name of Ukraine, which means boderland."
p. 151 of the 1970 reprint of the classic history.

There are other sources:

Orest Subtelny's "Ukraine: A History," offers this:
"In the vast frontier, which at that time was specifically referred to as Ukraina -- the land on the periphery of the civilized world..."
p. 105 of the 1989 paperback edition.

Perhaps more directly related to the mythological root of Ukraine, Paul Robert Magocsi notes in his "A History of Ukraine,"

"Etymologically, the term is of Slavic origin and is derived from the Indo-European root *krei* which means "to cut," and a secondary meaning of "an edge (krai) and a borderland "ukraina."

Magocsi has a full page explaining the roots of the term on page 171 of the 1996 paperback of his book, but nowhere does he suggest that it means anything more than borderland. He suggests its ancient roots as a geographical term that applied to the territory of what is modern-day Ukraine as well as other areas; and, of course, as the contemporary term for the geographical area/nation/state that is now Ukraine.

And there's plenty of other evidence for it as a, more or less, generic Slavic term for borderland, including the term Serbs used for the main area of their settlement within current-day Croatia: Krajina.

It was a frontier region and thus used the Slavic term.

--Tim Cuprisin