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#166776 08/27/03 01:37 PM
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Dear Diak,

Yes, the term does indeed have numerous meanings.

In recent decades, the term, when used by Ukrainians themselves, is often a pejorative term that strikes a kind of terror in their hearts since it does suggest clinging to the coat-tails of Great Russian imperialism.

"Russophilism" in our history and nation has usually meant this. And I think it is generally true to say that this is how Ukrainians anywhere today would interpret this term.

And this movement had its rationale in Western Ukraine to oppose denationalization where western Catholic countries used Latinization to try and make Ukrainians something other than what they were.

Latinization always went hand in hand with the national-political agenda, the two were never separate, as Russophilism and Russification never were either.

Prof. Kosarenko and Prof. Maximovych show how the term "Ukraine" originally also simply meant "field" for Ukrainians and underscored their strong attachment to the land, nature's processes etc.

"Rus'" was the formal name of the Kyivan city-state and, as such, appears more frequently in official documents, although even in ancient poetry the term "Ukraine" is used to signify "our people."

Today, because of historical usage, "Rus'" is totally identified with "Russia" or "Muscovy" and this term has become rather foreign to contemporary Ukrainian identity and nationality.

This is more "cultural" than "political" from my point of view, although politics does enter into it, as it most certainly did and does in the whole "purity of our Rite" debate.

The term "Ukraine" is as old as "Rus'" and perhaps older as is the most ancient name of our people "Roxolania" or the "White Alany."

I remember how our parish priest, Fr. Bohdan Lypsky, was called a "Russophile" for bringing us back to our Byzantine-Kyivan traditions.

He was always careful to draw a line between the Russian and Ukrainian traditions which he said were quite different in spirit and tone.

Some of our priests in our eparchy got themselves into trouble not because of their devotion to the Eastern traditions of the Ukrainian Church, but because they uncritically assumed that the Russian Church tradition was and is the ultimate liturgical standard to which the Ukrainian Church must aspire.

And where our Church failed to reflect the Russian traditions, there that is referred to, by them, as "Latinization."

Historically, I think the case can be made that both Latinization and Russification have been both detrimental and beneficial to our people and our Church, depending on the time frame and who it was, at that time, that was coming after us wink .

But both Ukrainian Orthodox and Catholic Churches are on the look out for Russification and the Orthodox especially in our community have tried to "de-Russify" themselves or, as Met. Ohienko called the process "Vidmoskovlennya."

But there are those parishioners who see ANY Easternization as "Russification" and I don't know what to do about them smile .

One thing to do is to get the priest to visit Ukraine for a while and then come back to serve here.

When he does this or that during the Liturgy that appear as "Russification" by the faithful, he can then always say, "Well, this is how our Church in Ukraine does it and I'm just following our true Ukrainian tradition . . ." wink

"Ah, nu, in that case . . ."

Ultimately, to be for our "Rus'" traditions is also to be for the term "Ukraine" since most Ukies today understand that term in the way handed down to them and interpreted for them by our Polish and Russian imperial brothers.

Alex

#166777 08/27/03 03:40 PM
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Perhaps we need a new term like "Kyivophile" for describing a cultural/liturgical milleu without the imperial Polish/Russian baggage since even between Galicians and eastern Ukrainians there are very different perceptions on this issue with regards to "russophilia".

It is a complex issue, especially when many of the older people in our churches think the latinizations they were brought up with are normative and "the way we do things" and anything outside of that in regards to more authentic Kyivan liturgical practice is seen as "russification". Metropolitan Sheptytsky even had to deal with this from his own clergy and people. Sometimes even saying this is how things are done this or that way liturgically in Ukraine fall on deaf (or stubborn) ears.

The church represents a safety zone for many of the older people and they do not do well with change, even if mandated by our Patriarch, Synod and Rome itself.

#166778 08/27/03 03:57 PM
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Dear Diak,

No argument from me on that score!

When referring to the pristine purity of our tradition when I'm doing my religion classes, I refer to the " Holy Kyivan Church" or "Kyivan Christianity."

That seems to go over well with both young and old smile

The fear of anything connected to "Rus'" among our people is also seen in the way a popular religious hymn has been changed.

"Bozhe velykyj yediny, nashu Vkrayinu khrany" was originally "PYCb-YKPAIHY XPAHU."

Certainly, Patriarch Josef the Confessor insisted on "Patriarch of Rus'-Ukraine" and no one dared challenge him on that.

As UC has found out, what is considered "wrong" in the mouth of a young person or one with no real authority in the eyes of our "people," can be considered "absolutely the way it should be" when spoken, in the same way, by someone older or with a reputation like Patriarch Josef.

And be wise with them!

Alex

#166779 08/28/03 05:24 PM
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props alex.


Ilya (Hooray for Orthodoxy!!)Galadza
#166780 08/28/03 06:01 PM
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Illya Romanovich, I must say that is one of the coolest avatars. smile

Rus-Ukrayinu krani...

#166781 08/28/03 06:10 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
The fear of anything connected to "Rus'" among our people is also seen in the way a popular religious hymn has been changed.

"Bozhe velykyj yediny, nashu Vkrayinu khrany" was originally "PYCb-YKPAIHY XPAHU."
A popular Marian hymn of Galician origin (I believe it's a hymn of praise to the Pochaiv Mother of God), "Prechystaja Divo Maty Rus'koho Kraju" at some point made it into Subcarpathian prayerbooks and hymnals. But at some time in the early/mid- 20th century in the Eparchy of Presov, some books started to change it to "Prechystaja Divo Maty Nashoho Kraju". Then I started seeing the same change in certain Ukrainian G.C. books as well...

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