www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Bishop Ivan and Pope JPII

Here is the link to a picutre of Bishop Ivan Khoma and Pope JPII.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021106/168/2mcch.html

Dear U-C:

Please do tell us what message you wish to convey with this photo of Ukrainian Bishop Ivan Choma kissing the right hand of His Holiness, Pope John Paul II. (Actually, I think, he is kissing the ring of the Pope as Bishop of Rome=Supreme Pontiff.)

Is he Greek-Catholic or Latin-Catholic?

Thanks.

AmdG

This picture caused a few comments on other boards (Orthodox) as an example of Roman supperiority over the Byzantines (regardles of Church). Of course, those of us who are enlightened in our Eastern Christianity recognize the appropriateness of this gesture of obediance. If the Holy Father were in Eastern vestments (which I suppose he could wear), would it make a difference?
The glory of our heritage is that we are united under one leader. This is how we fulfill the mandate of our Lord to be one.

Just some thoughts...

Dmitri

Well,
I suppose the picture does beg the question whether these Churches are "in Communion" with Rome or "under Rome" Certainly if In Communion, there would be a brotherly embrace as the Pope does with the Ecumenical Patriarch and other Orthodox Hierarchs?

At least the Bishop didn't have to kiss the Pope's toe as was the case in earlier centuries!

Dear UC,

the picture is not all that shocking.

Bishop Ivan Choma ia a Bishop in the Roman Curia.

His age is 78.

And he is the Attorney General in Rome for the Archiepiscopacy Major of Lviv of the Ukrainians.

The Bishop should travel to Kyiv more .

I don't see what's so bad about it; he ain't got his primacy fer nuthin'.

ChristTeen287

I see nothing wrong with the picture and/or the gesture it contains. After all, Pope John Paul II is the Patriarch of the West, which outranks a bishop.

With Best Wishes!
Stefan-Ivan

Are not Ivan and John Paul brothers in the episcopate and concelebrants? Primacy and dignity are completely different things. John Paul, as bishop of Rome, is the patriarch of the West and the first among all the bishops of the Universal Church but as bishop he is equal in dignity to bishop Ivan. Episcopal dignity has to do with episcopal ordination and not with the episcopal see. When the patriarch of Alexandria addressed a letter to Saint Damasus, a Roman pope with Spanish backgrounds, using the title “Universal pope”, Saint Damasus (unfortunately I do not remember his exact words) answered “I do not want to receive an honor which blames the honor of my brothers in the episcopate, when you say that I am Universal pope (Katholikos Papas) you are saying that you are not universal/katholikos and you are not bishop. All these titles are contrary to the Christian charity and drive the Church to the division and the schism”. By the way, I consider that bishop Ivan's "gesture of obedience" can also be be interpretaed like a "very human gesture of a bishop towards an elder and ill brother in the episcopate".

About the picture and some of the comments i have read, this should encourage a the whole the church. As we know, Pope John Paul II is doing all what is possible for a reconciliation between our brother orthodox and catholics. You, the brothers and sisters from the east have so many to give.

I myself know it froma fact. Although i am from the west and go to the latin rite, i do prefer the eastern liturgy because of the solemnity of the liturgy.

Let's get more closer and act as the pope is asking of us.

May God bless you all.

Glort to Jesus Christ !!!
Glory Forever !!!

The picture of Bishop Ivan demonstrates WHY the Pope is Catholic. We of the Eastern Churches loyal to him are what make him Catholic.

Not that we are worthy to follow such a Holy man, but we do have a dual Holy mission of loyalty and diversity.

On this day, the feast of Saint Josaphat, we should remember that if were not for us, the Pope would be only Bishop and Patriarch of Rome.

Have a Blessed Saint Josaphat Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear Friends,

When His All-Holiness the Patriarch of Constantinople visited His Holiness the Pope of Rome, they both sat on thrones that were equal in height.

The last time I looked, a Patriarch outranked a bishop.

Those who say this picture shows a travesty of our being in Communion with Rome are clearly nonsensical and are out to "get us" with any stone they can pick up.

Alex

Dear Alex,

Maybe I can refer you so some guy, also named Alex, who posted the top ten list of benefits of being in Communion with Rome? Sometimes we "get us" all by ourselves.

"We have met the enemy, and they are us." --- Pogo

Have a Blessed Saint Josaphat Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd duck

Bishop Ivan should kiss the hand of any Patriarch, Eastern or Western, as anyone should when they greet one. This is a show of basic respect for any Patriarch. It seems the Orthodox would be a little hypocritical criticizing this practice.

Dear Diak,

As far as I know no Orthodox bishop would kneels to kiss Ecumenical patriarch's hand. (Greek) Orthodox bishops (no matter if one of them is patriarch or not) simply interchange the “holy kiss” (filima agion) embracing each other (aspasmos). When the patriarch of Constantinople Bartholomew I meets the president of the Greek Republic and other Greek lay dignitaries he does not allow them to kiss his hand but he embraces and kiss them (probably when he met the president of the USA he did not kiss him since Greek/Mediterranean and American tradition about men kissing each other is completely different). In fact when the Ecumenical patriarch is in Greece or among Greeks he would only allow to kiss his hand to women and men he has never meet before otherwise he will consider you his personal friend and he will embrace and kiss you.

Francisco, kissing the hand is an accepted sign of respect to any ecclesial dignitary. I would kiss the hand of any patriarch if offered.

And considering the Pope's current state of health, and the advances he has made towards the Eastern Churches during his pontificate, I'll certainly give him the benefit of the doubt. It's not like he is well enough to receive everyone standing. Sheesh - give the Holy Father a break...

Svyatishomu vselens'komy Arkhiereyevi Ivana Pavla Papi Rimskomu, sotvori Hospodi mnohiyi lita!

I am not up to date on the Ecumenical Patriarch's current protocol for hand-kissing, but I am almost positive that I have seen pictures of hierarchs (usually of the Ecumenical Patriarchate) kissing his hand.

If I find photos, I'll share.

-Dave

Dear Diak,

In a previous post I wrote "I consider that bishop Ivan's "gesture of obedience" can also be be explained like a "very human gesture of a bishop towards an elder and ill brother in the episcopate".

Dear Friends:

Its a nice picture, does one have to be tied to protocol at all times?

The Pope is old and infirm, the bishop's action was a properly human response to the condition of an extremely venerable fellow Priest.

It looks terrible, and is a mark of bad manners, if one bends over someone who is in a chair.

The late Princess of Wales would bring herself to the level of any person she was speaking to; I have also seen the Pope do the same.

What is the protocol position regarding acts of Christian charity?

At the end of an Easter service I attended the congregation went up to greet the clergy, and in the line was a group of Studite Priests from the Monastery in Orangeville.

All of the Priests slightly pulled back when I bent down to kiss their hand, and one of the Fathers actually kissed my hand in return.

I did what I was supposed to do, they did what they had to do.

I would though, like to see what the Pope did immediately after or before the Bishop kissed his hand.

A Patriarch does outrank a Bishop, but love and respect outranks all.

defreitas

Sorry, dear friends, but in Orthodoxy, all bishops are equal in dignity, regardless of "rank." Bishops (inlcuding archbshops, metropolitans, and partriarchs) exchange the kiss of peace with each other and then kiss each other's hands, regardless of rank. Same with priests, same with deacons. Please don't try to equate the picture at the beginning of this thread with anything in Orthodoxy.

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church
McKees Rocks, PA
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org

Dear Friends,

I have to agree with Fr. Thomas!

I always do the "full treatment" when greeting my friends who are priests - bowing, asking for his blessing, kissing his hand and then exchanging kisses on the face.

And they also insist on kissing my hand, which I am totally against.

But as they are more athletic than I . . .

To want to read into every gesture something derived from canonical law or ecclesiastical precedents is wrong, as Fr. Thomas has reminded us.

When I met the Pope in July, as I've said, I had a chance to mention this Forum to the Holy Father - who seemed positively fascinated by the whole concept.

He actually asked for the web address - and an assistant quickly produced a pen and card to write it down - which I did.

I told the Holy Father we have "lurkers" and "posters."

He said, in his broken English of course, that he would try and "look."

I certainly kissed his hands and am very pleased to be "under" him.

Alex

Alex,

YOU MET THE HOLY FATHER????!!! I am absolutely filled with envy!

ChristTeen287

With all due respect to everyone, Alex's comments (which I am in complete agreement with) seem more in line with those posted by defreitas than those by Fr. Thomas. Or am I reading them incorrectly . . . ?

I just want to be sure about what you mean, Alex.

Alex said:
To want to read into every gesture something derived from canonical law or ecclesiastical precedents is wrong, as Fr. Thomas has reminded us.

Posted by defreitas:
Its a nice picture, does one have to be tied to protocol at all times?
What is the protocol position regarding acts of Christian charity?
All of the Priests slightly pulled back when I bent down to kiss their hand, and one of the Fathers actually kissed my hand in return.
A Patriarch does outrank a Bishop, but love and respect outranks all.

Posted by Fr. Thomas:
Sorry, dear friends, but in Orthodoxy, all bishops are equal in dignity, regardless of "rank." Bishops (inlcuding archbshops, metropolitans, and partriarchs) exchange the kiss of peace with each other and then kiss each other's hands, regardless of rank. Same with priests, same with deacons. Please don't try to equate the picture at the beginning of this thread with anything in Orthodoxy.

Thanks for any clarification,

Fr. Joe

Regarding my comments, it was only in regard to how a "bishop" greets a "patriarch" in the Orthodox Tradition (which is the closest situation we would have in relation to the picture). However, it should also be said that we Orthodox are not slaves to protocol - if that was the inference from other posts, than of course, that's not correct. But we are orderly in such matters. Such is the Tradition of the Church.

That being said, no one faults the Pope for not reciprocating due to his frailty, if that indeed is the practice. My goodness, we should simply be thankful that he's alive. However, if the practice is that bishops kiss the Pope's hand or ring without reciprocation, than there is no precident for that in Orthodoxy. That was my only point.

Greetings to all during the fast,

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church
McKees Rocks, PA
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Fathers Joseph and Thomas (in alphabetical order, not according to Church),

I always get nervous when I am between two priests!

I am out of my league!

I agree, Father Joseph, that my comments were aligned with those of Defreitas, but I wanted to reach out to Fr. Thomas as well.

It seemed to me that it was the "catholic" thing to do!

Kissing BOTH your hands, I again implore your collective blessing,

Your humble beadsman,

Alex