www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Bishop Ivan and Pope JPII

I am not up to date on the Ecumenical Patriarch's current protocol for hand-kissing, but I am almost positive that I have seen pictures of hierarchs (usually of the Ecumenical Patriarchate) kissing his hand.

If I find photos, I'll share.

-Dave

Dear Diak,

In a previous post I wrote "I consider that bishop Ivan's "gesture of obedience" can also be be explained like a "very human gesture of a bishop towards an elder and ill brother in the episcopate".

Dear Friends:

Its a nice picture, does one have to be tied to protocol at all times?

The Pope is old and infirm, the bishop's action was a properly human response to the condition of an extremely venerable fellow Priest.

It looks terrible, and is a mark of bad manners, if one bends over someone who is in a chair.

The late Princess of Wales would bring herself to the level of any person she was speaking to; I have also seen the Pope do the same.

What is the protocol position regarding acts of Christian charity?

At the end of an Easter service I attended the congregation went up to greet the clergy, and in the line was a group of Studite Priests from the Monastery in Orangeville.

All of the Priests slightly pulled back when I bent down to kiss their hand, and one of the Fathers actually kissed my hand in return.

I did what I was supposed to do, they did what they had to do.

I would though, like to see what the Pope did immediately after or before the Bishop kissed his hand.

A Patriarch does outrank a Bishop, but love and respect outranks all.

defreitas

Sorry, dear friends, but in Orthodoxy, all bishops are equal in dignity, regardless of "rank." Bishops (inlcuding archbshops, metropolitans, and partriarchs) exchange the kiss of peace with each other and then kiss each other's hands, regardless of rank. Same with priests, same with deacons. Please don't try to equate the picture at the beginning of this thread with anything in Orthodoxy.

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church
McKees Rocks, PA
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org

Dear Friends,

I have to agree with Fr. Thomas!

I always do the "full treatment" when greeting my friends who are priests - bowing, asking for his blessing, kissing his hand and then exchanging kisses on the face.

And they also insist on kissing my hand, which I am totally against.

But as they are more athletic than I . . .

To want to read into every gesture something derived from canonical law or ecclesiastical precedents is wrong, as Fr. Thomas has reminded us.

When I met the Pope in July, as I've said, I had a chance to mention this Forum to the Holy Father - who seemed positively fascinated by the whole concept.

He actually asked for the web address - and an assistant quickly produced a pen and card to write it down - which I did.

I told the Holy Father we have "lurkers" and "posters."

He said, in his broken English of course, that he would try and "look."

I certainly kissed his hands and am very pleased to be "under" him.

Alex

Alex,

YOU MET THE HOLY FATHER????!!! I am absolutely filled with envy!

ChristTeen287

With all due respect to everyone, Alex's comments (which I am in complete agreement with) seem more in line with those posted by defreitas than those by Fr. Thomas. Or am I reading them incorrectly . . . ?

I just want to be sure about what you mean, Alex.

Alex said:
To want to read into every gesture something derived from canonical law or ecclesiastical precedents is wrong, as Fr. Thomas has reminded us.

Posted by defreitas:
Its a nice picture, does one have to be tied to protocol at all times?
What is the protocol position regarding acts of Christian charity?
All of the Priests slightly pulled back when I bent down to kiss their hand, and one of the Fathers actually kissed my hand in return.
A Patriarch does outrank a Bishop, but love and respect outranks all.

Posted by Fr. Thomas:
Sorry, dear friends, but in Orthodoxy, all bishops are equal in dignity, regardless of "rank." Bishops (inlcuding archbshops, metropolitans, and partriarchs) exchange the kiss of peace with each other and then kiss each other's hands, regardless of rank. Same with priests, same with deacons. Please don't try to equate the picture at the beginning of this thread with anything in Orthodoxy.

Thanks for any clarification,

Fr. Joe

Regarding my comments, it was only in regard to how a "bishop" greets a "patriarch" in the Orthodox Tradition (which is the closest situation we would have in relation to the picture). However, it should also be said that we Orthodox are not slaves to protocol - if that was the inference from other posts, than of course, that's not correct. But we are orderly in such matters. Such is the Tradition of the Church.

That being said, no one faults the Pope for not reciprocating due to his frailty, if that indeed is the practice. My goodness, we should simply be thankful that he's alive. However, if the practice is that bishops kiss the Pope's hand or ring without reciprocation, than there is no precident for that in Orthodoxy. That was my only point.

Greetings to all during the fast,

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church
McKees Rocks, PA
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Fathers Joseph and Thomas (in alphabetical order, not according to Church),

I always get nervous when I am between two priests!

I am out of my league!

I agree, Father Joseph, that my comments were aligned with those of Defreitas, but I wanted to reach out to Fr. Thomas as well.

It seemed to me that it was the "catholic" thing to do!

Kissing BOTH your hands, I again implore your collective blessing,

Your humble beadsman,

Alex