www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Eparchy of Mukachevo is now Ukrainian Greek Catholic

At the Ukrainian Greek Catholic site, the Eparchy of Mukachevo's bishops are listed as "List of Bishops of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church."

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/eng/ugcc_structure/bishops/

Has the Eparchy of Mukachevo joined the Ukrainian jurisdiction? If so, then 'why?' If not, then why the lie?

Joe

I have the sudden feeling of deja vu. :p

Please keep your hands, feet, and politics in the thread at all times. Do not attempt to leave until the thread had come to a full and complete stop.

Hold on tight, 'cuz here we go again!

Dave

Joe,
As Dave points out this has been noted before.
On the Structure and Territory page the site says:

Could use a little updating.

DJS,

By this, I presume you mean that the list of bishops to which Joe referred could use some footnoting to make clear that those of Mukachevo are not of the UGCC - please say "yes" :rolleyes:

Joe,

Be assured, there has been no change in the status of the Eparchy of Mukachevo as to the Church sui iuris of which it is a part.

Many years,

Neil

Sorry to disappoint, but no that's not what I meant. ( :rolleyes: ???) The quote from the site indicates that the church "is lead by" Bishops Ivan Semedy and Ivan Margitych. They are retired.

DJS,

Ah, good point . I got so caught up in looking to stifle the "here we go again" fear that Dave expressed, that I didn't even notice.

Many years,

Neil

It is outdated as it still lists Bishop Michael (Wiwchar) as the Adminstrator for the Eparchy of St. Nicholas. Bishop Richard has been Bishop of that Eparchy over a year (nearing two years). And Bishop Pavlo Vasylyk has reposed.

As Neil has stated, the "official" sui iuris status has not been changed. On a more practical level, they are included in the clergy directories of the UGCC, seminarians often study in L'viv for higher education, they participate in UGCC synods, they have priests in the US working in UGCC eparchies, etc.

I was all ready to dance in jubilation when I saw the topic, but then I read the thread. Silly me. :rolleyes: I must remember: better a papal tiara than a mitre (or kobluk!) on a Ukrainian head.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Well said.

The last thing I wish to do is to speak of ethnic issues since it always opens a can of worms. But since this thread has been started and a few weeks ago I had a chance to hear a talk by and speak with both the rector and a professor at the Blessed Theodore Romzha Seminary in Uzhorod, perhaps it is appropriate to post a summary of what I learned.

On January 13, 2005 Father Taras Lovska, the rector of the Blessed Theodore Romzha Seminary in Uzhorod and Protocyncellus of the Eparchy of Mukachevo and Father John Zeyack, a priest of the Eparchy of Passaic, NJ and a professor at Romzha Seminary spoke at Epiphany of Our Lord parish in Annandale, Virginia about the life of the Ruthenian Church in the Eparchy of Mukachevo. Most of the questions I had intended to ask were actually asked by someone else during the presentation. During the social hour afterwards there was plenty of time to ask more specific questions.

I have summarized some of the issues that were discussed from my notes. Some context might be missing, but since these issues have already been discussed at length numerous times on the Forum, I will ask readers to do a search and re-read those threads. The presentation by Fathers Taras and John was not a formal one and there was no agenda.

Ethnicity - The Carpatho-Rusins do not consider themselves to be of Ukrainian ethnicity. But this is something they don�t want to argue about. When someone asks them �Are you Ukrainian?� or �Are you Russian?� they tend to answer an equivalent of �Whatever� and change the subject. They are so used to being told what they are they simply choose not to discuss it. When the Communists were in charge they were told they were Russians. Now that the Ukrainians are in charge they are told to be Ukrainian.

In 1994 the Vatican asked them if they wanted to merge with the Ukrainian GCC. They were open to the idea but Lvov/Lviv would not agree to written guarantees respecting their Rusin ethnicity and Liturgy. If they merged at that time they would have to adopt the Ukrainian usage in all things liturgical and abandon the Carpatho-Rusin usage. Because Lvov/Lviv would not respect that they were Rusins and not Ukrainians, our bishops and people rejected a merger with the UGCC and chose instead to remain independent from the UGCC. Relations with the UGCC are friendly and the Rusin bishops do participate in some meetings much like our bishops in America participate in the national bishops� conference.

Ethnic Identify / National Identity - It varies, but for the most part those Rusins over 25 consider themselves to be Rusins living in the country of Ukraine. Those under 25 are analogous to the United States, where the children want to belong to the larger group and identify more with being American then their own ethnicity. In Uzhorod, etc, the young people know they are ethnic Rusins but are beginning to put the Ukrainian nationality first. [Government business is required to be in the Ukrainian language. Government broadcasts (radio, tv, etc.) are all in Ukrainian and, in some cases, Russian. Those who speak languages other than Ukrainian are often treated as second-class citizens.] A not-exact parallel is the children and grandchildren of those Slavs who immigrated to America (they wanted to be Americans and not members of an ethnic minority).

Language - In the villages they still speak Rusin as a first language. Governmental business is required to be done in Ukrainian (at least in western Ukraine). Fr. Taras compared the differences between Rusin and Ukrainian as similar to the differences between Ukrainian and Russian, but just not as much. If you know and speak only Rusin you can understand and make yourself understood to people who speak only Ukrainian or Russian. Prior to the fall of communism, Russian was the language of the government and schools. Most people are fluent in Rusin, Ukrainian and Russian and will normally respond to you in the language you speak to them in.

Seminary - At the seminary they made a conscious decision to conduct classes in Ukrainian. This choice was made because it is the official language of the country and they want the seminarians to become proficient in Ukrainian. Fr. Taras compared it to 60 years ago here in America. Rusin was the first language but if you wanted to get on in life you needed to speak English. So classes were held in our seminaries almost exclusively in English. The reality is that, because they are a minority, the Rusin language will probably disappear in a few generations and be replaced with Ukrainian (just as Slovak has become the first language of Rusins and Ukrainians living in Slovakia and Polish has become the first language of Rusins living in Poland). It is a battle no one expects to win so they seem to be choosing not to even fight it.

Worship Language � Old Church Slavonic is the official language used in worship in 90% of the parishes. The other 10% of parishes use a mixture of OCS, Ukrainian, Slovak, Hungarian and Romanian. The official books for the Ruthenian Recension published by Rome serve as the standard for all liturgical services.

Last year they used only Old Church Slavonic in worship at the seminary. This year they alternate languages (I'm not sure if by days or weeks). The seminarians are learning all of the Divine Services in Old Church Slavonic, Ukrainian, Slovak, Romanian, Hungarian and English. Fr. Zeyack says that when they sing the Liturgy in English, the 120 voices sound like a bunch of Americans.

Relations with Orthodox Churches � Generally speaking, relations between Greek Catholics and Orthodox are decent. There are still some problems regarding ownership of church buildings confiscated from the Greek Catholics and given to the Orthodox by the Communists and that sometimes displays itself with resentments on all parts. There are also several places where church buildings are shared.

Yuschenko � Fr. Taras also told stories about the election, how the government workers were told to vote Yanukovich how Orthodox parishes received large monetary gifts from Yanukovich and endorsed him from the pulpit, how businesses in za karpodska were closed or burned for putting up posters for Yuschenko, etc.

Finances � The seminary is very poor. The cost of a semester for each student is US$120. None of the students can afford to pay their tuition. The Eparchy of Passaic is currently paying the food bill. Donations are welcome!

The Rusin people of the Carpathian Mountains are extremely poor. If you own a cow and a few chickens you are considered upper middle class. They are experiencing an exodus of people to places in Europe and elsewhere where decent paying jobs are available.

Admin,

Thanks for that very interesting summary.

Many years,

Neil

I'm probably walking wear angels fear to tread, but let me say this; I champion the idea of ethnic identity by whatever ethnic group. I know very little of the Rusin people, but I hope that things will get better for them in their homeland. If that doesn't work, I would welcome their coming to America, but I realize that would be a last resort. hey, my Native ancestors have lived in the same area for millenia, and I don't think that they should have to leave because of no other choice.
But what intrigues me is the idea of a merger of Rusin and Ukrainian GC churches, If the Holy See grants Patriarchal status to the Ukrainians, would that increase the prestige and influence of Slavonic Catholics, including Rusins, Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus, and other groups following the Slavonic Byzantine tradition? Possibly even a panSlavonic Patriarchate? could we actually have a unified body here in the States? I speak in the context of our interests here, regardless of ethnic heritage (but of ecclesiatical identity) when dealing with certain of the Latin Church when it comes to the respect we are entitled to.
Much Love,
Jonn

In the course of a most welcome report on the ethnolinguistic situation in Transcarpathia, the Administrator mentions that "Fr. Zeyack says that when [the seminarians in Uzhhorod] sing the Liturgy in English, the 120 voices sound like a bunch of Americans."
We must have hope that in time their English will improve!

Incognitus

Incognitus,

Perhaps you were hoping they would sound like a bunch of Brits? :p

Admin

Dear Jonn:

As things stand today - no. There are those of us who prefer to maintain our jurisdictional ties with Kyiv/Lviv.

Yours,

hal

Participating and voting in Synods, at least in the historic and usual Byzantine sense, is a far closer relationship than the Admin intimates here such as our bishops going to a meeting here or there with RC clergy.

It means you are at least symbolically part of that church. Having students in UGCC seminaries and having your priests directly working in UGCC eparchies (in Ukraine, USA, Canada, and elsewhere) is also a bit of a closer relationship than that presented above.

I also do not intend to open up any ethnic can of worms, nor advocate any eparchy to give up a sui iuris status but would appreciate a bit more balanced interpretation.

For anyone who has travelled to the Uzhorod region lately, they will give you a far higher percentage of parishes using modern Ukrainian in the Divine Liturgy and other services, especially those in religious communities which may have provincials or mother houses attached to L'viv, including Basilians, Redemptorists, and Studites, all of whom have representation in the Eparchy of Mukachevo.

I also would like some documentation that an agreement was refused by L'viv based on ethnic concerns. L'viv certainly has not tried to interfere with the "ethnicity" of Father Sergei Golovanov nor Serge Gajek. Some of us are just a bit skeptical about this whole thing as presented here.

Administrator,

Can you please explain how one goes about donating funds in a secure way directly to our seminaries over there?

Joe

Diak,

Thank you for your post.

I agree that participating in voting in synods suggests a close relationship. I did not mention it in my summary since neither Father Taras Lovska, the rector of the seminary in Uzhorod nor Father John Zeyack, a professor at that seminary, did not talk about it. I only summarized what was actually discussed. As I stated in my earlier post, relations with the UGCC are friendly and the Rusins do participate in some meetings, much like our bishops in America participate in the national bishops� conference. To me that would indicate that they vote as part of the synod on things affecting the entire country of Ukraine but not on matters internal to the UGCC. I would expect that the Roman Catholics in Ukraine do the same. That would be similar to the involvement that Eastern Catholic bishops in the United States have in the USCCB.

There was a direct question to Father Taras regarding the languages used in worship. The 90% Slavonic figure is his, not mine. Since he lives there and is protocyncellus I defer to his estimate and accept it as accurate. But he spoke to the parishes and your comments seem to speak to the religious communities. Since parishes and religious communities are two different groups you could both be accurate. It is logical that religious groups with provincials or mother houses attached to Lvov / Lviv would be more Ukrainian orientated in all things.

If you consider my information to lack balance, I would be happy to give you contact information for a few people who attended the talk, for the pastor of the parish, or for the priests themselves. Those who attended were very happy that the Church is recovering in Uzhorod and across Ukraine and in the other Slavic countries.

You might consider the possibility that those who desire that the Ruthenian (Carpatho-Rusin) Church be absorbed into the UGCC are themselves capable of bias. If Ukraine transforms itself into a free society (something I am praying for) I have no doubt that the minorities will eventually forget their own languages and ethnicity and embrace that of the larger Ukrainian nation (something I would not like to see but which is probably inevitable). It has happened here in America and is happening today in places like Slovakia and Poland. Time will be the determining factor.

Admin

Joe,

Several people asked that question and a few people even wrote checks on the spot (Father John Zeyack was collecting them). I had planned to follow up with a check myself but was out of town for 10 days and haven�t gotten to it yet. I will obtain this information this weekend and post it here on the Forum.

Admin

Admin & Diak,

I can't put my fingers on it at the moment, but it seems to me that reports of the Mukachevan hierarchy's involvement in the UGCC Synod, which has been a springboard for heated discussion of this issue in the not too distant past, have identified their role as that of observers, not as participant (i.e., voting) members. I haven't yet seen anything that suggests differently.

Many years,

Neil

What Neil says makes the most sense. The Eparch of Mukachevo is invited as a guest to the meetings of the Holy Synod of the UGCC, but is not a voting member - as are the RC's that might observe as guests.

Still, there is a distinction between being a member of a "syond" and a member of a "conference." Otherwise the USCCB would be called the "United States Synod of Catholic Bishops."

Yours,

hal

Thanks, Hal, those were the words I was looking for. But I believe that Bishop Ivan Margitych did actually vote in the Synod.

Perhaps the voting status has been clarified to some degree, or I am mistaken, but that Eparchy definitely has a very active relationship with L'viv, I would posit even closer than Prjashev. Some of the students in the Ukrainian Catholic Education Foundation (UCEF) intensive summer camps have been from the Eparchy of Mukachevo.

I have also spoken at length with persons who were at the talk, who understood its purpose and organization, and I stand by my opinions based on their observations. I thank the Admin nonetheless for his offer and response.

I realize it is difficult for some to realize that the inhabitants of the Eparchy of Mukachevo now are within the geographic and political boundries of Ukraine, but that is indeed now reality (and has been for some years). There are admittedly some with fears of Rusyn absorption, perhaps more outside of Ukraine than within it, which may historically not be completely unfounded. However we should be looking at a much more visionary future evangelical agenda removed from elements of mutual xenophobia.

I do not advocate any loss of status sui iuris as that is between the churches involved and their superiors in Rome who they must answer to. I only wish to find the quickest means to unite our Greek Catholic churches in the interest of evangelism and remove the artifical barriers of jurisdictionalism which often hamper and divide our efforts.

A church composed of micromanaged sui iuris units dependent on Rome when geographically and ecclesiastically the opportunity presents itself for membership in a synodal and ultimately Patriarchal form of governance, much more Byzantine, continues to suggest the promotion of Uniatism.

Again, I would like to see some written documentation that L'viv refused an ecclesiastical agreement based on a request to maintain ethnic identities. I will be doing some independent checking in the meantime into that allegation. That simply is not logical and raises additional suspicions.

I also think a request to Patriarch Lubomyr to personally and publically deal with this allegation would be reasonable. I encourage everyone to request him to do so, because something here is simply not adding up.

On another tangent, I see little difference between the scenario of a united Greek Catholic church in Ukraine and the proposed approach of a unified Greek Catholic jurisdiction for those of Slavic liturgical use which has been discussed for the USA along the lines of the OCA, of which I am an advocate.

The keeping of a Rusyn eparchy/usage within a patriarchal church, certainly seems possible in the light of those churches which are under the omophorion of the Patriarch of Constantinople.

Exarch Leonid of blessed memory was fully a member of the UGCC of Blessed Andrey Sheptytsky's leadership, was never rejected because of his Russian ethnicity, nor was the Russian character of the Russian Greek Catholic Church ever compromised by their allegiance to the UGCC. In fact, Metropolitan Andrey convened a Synod for them (and later Patriarch Josyp clandestinely) to exercise a synodal identity and governance for themselves, and strongly adjured them to keep their Russian (either Nikonian or pre-Nikonian as they chose) liturgical, cultural, and spiritual traditions.

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

What is being discussed here is similar to what when on between the Maronite Church and the Syriac Catholic Church. The Syriac proposed back in the 70's that our Churches become one since they share the same Traditions. The Maronites refused.

The reasons were many fold. One was nationalist, ie that most Maronites are Lebanese. But the more important part is that with merger, the issue of the Syriac Orthodox Church would be at our front door. Since we do not have any type of Orthodox counterpart, we are a lot freer to advocate for Christians throughout the Middle East,with little discord from other Christian groups. By having an Orthodox counterpart we fall into politics we do not like.

From the Ukrainian perspective they may look at the Rusins and say that since the vast majority of Rusins are Catholic within there region, whereas we are not it might not be a good idea to have them join us at the present time since we are still dealing with the Catholic-Orthodox issues that do not at present involve them.

They may also be looking at the situation in America, where they see that the Byzantine Churches (which have been here for over 100 years) are not merging nor really looking at doing so.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Yuhannon, good points. But in that case the Maronites and Syrians have quite different liturgical usages compared to one another. In this case all use the same Rescension (Ruthenian Rescension) of the Divine Liturgy.