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Do I like brandy?

Are bears Catholic? Does the Pope...?

PS I'm the same age as Medved (as I gathered from one of his posts). Does that actually make me an old-timer?

I'm with Fr Frank on this one.

For far too long we've used the "it's not part of the Ruthenian tradition" to justify not restoring what was part of our tradition before we entered union with Rome. (As for example whenever restoring the prosphora tradition is discussed.)

What saddens me is there seems to be such opposition to restoring authentic Eastern tradition to our Church. Why? I have two friends, both formerly Orthodox, who in the past couple of years decided to enter the Catholic Church. Both would not consider our Church for a new home...the difference is so great from Orthodoxy. They both now go to Roman parishes. One said if there had been a Melkite parish he'd have tried that, even though he had been OCA, but there wasn't one in his area.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Most interesting - and most encouraging. May God grant every assistance to Father Chrysostom and his flock.
Incognitus

I pray that the Russian Catholic community grows and prospers and that the Holy Spirit guides them.

What most people consider "Ruthenian" tradition is what they only knew (past tense) since their childhood days. Most of the time it was a chum bucket of Elkoisms mistaken for "Our people's" traditions.

Obviously, the Bishop of Denver is no John Ireland.

Let us pray for Fr. Frank and his new community.

DTBrown,

It all depends on one's outlook or mission. If one thought that our inevitable end was absorption into the Latin Rite, then one naturally concluded that disregarding our Eastern traditions was to be expected. We were only getting ready for the natural end of our church.

But we must ask, "Who has that death-wish today?"

Today, we call our former death-wish tract for what it was: a means to kill off a church, Ruthenian traditions included. The fact that many of our men married Latin brides didn't help resolve our identity problem. So, if our clergy and bishops were tearing down iconostases, ridding of our cantorship and the many liturgical texts and melodies we brought with us, and our mommies were teaching us her prayers and devotions from her former Latin church, then ... you fill in the rest of this history.

Today, we, like good marketers of the Gospel, have decided to actually market our own products. Sorry for the business language, but it only helps to put things in perspective since confining human nature and behavior to church things may allow and confirm silly ideas: like promoting everything BUT our traditions.

But many of our people (and I include non-nash folks here) have seen the beauty and authenticity of our traditions, actually listened to the Pope (something 'real' Greek Catholics claim to do, I think), and decided to put into practice what we learned in highschool and college: sell the product represented by our logo for a change.

Is it all really "new" if such things were in our cantor books decades before our mommies and daddies were born? How does this affect the notion of "change?"

Joe

djs said

I thought the old Johnny Cash song was "I walk the line"

I think you drew the line earlier. I think when our people were first evangelized, Cyril and Methodius, Bulgarian missionaries, Greeks to Kyivan Rus', etc. etc. all Christian traditions and practices were "alien". And the narrowly ethnic parishes have in many cases nearly lost all of the next generation(s).

In this case what tradition is "our own"? Latinizations? Resisting Slavonic and heiratic languages? Then "repudiate" and "import alien" away I say. It is clear that the majority of the community has chosen their conscience on this issue, anyway, and has chosen to witness in a more Orthodox manner in communion with Rome. What specific repudiations of tradition are you talking about? As I recall they to a great extent retained Prostopinje for the typical chant at the Liturgy.

As the Administrator points out so often when dealing with ethnicity issues, this is an American parish, in Denver, not a parish in Kosice or Uzhorod or even Rusyn-American strongholds back east. The people are a truly a "pan-Byzantine" mix, with a lot of converts and even some Hispanics.

I would consider your point to have some validity if, say, a parish of new Ukrainian immigrants had the priest all of a sudden pull a liturgical language change on the people. In that case I am with the people. The case in Denver is a very different case, in an American parish with English language usage since its inception and deeply ingrained latinizations.

Father Chrysostom is doing the right thing in exposing them to the riches of Byzantine tradition, not putting on blinders and narrowing the view. Mnohaja i blahaja lita.

Again, we must make a distinction between Latinizations and authentic recension. I fail to see how "superior" sand candle stands are compared to candles on a rack? I guess those candle racks were introduced at the Zamosc? There does exist a authentic recension that does not include "imported" Latinizations. I'm just tried of bishops and priests "throwing out the baby with the bath water" when reforming our recension.

Ung-Certez

Diak,

It sounds as though ou have some familiarity with the Denver parish. If so, I am willing to attach greater weight to your analysis. After my first post, in response to UC, I reflected that it's probably better, as Michael suggested, to avoid attaching preconceptions to the limited information available in conjuring up "reasons" behind the unfortunate situation in Denver.

Drawing the line:
This is trivial. Devoted parishoners are more important to the vitality of a parish than are detached ones. No kidding. Any suggestion, however, that our choice is limited to these cases - devoted converts and lethargic cradles - is silly. This is phony dilemma. Its presupposition really paves the way for problems not solutions.

Ethnicity:
I write that it is important for people in leadership positions to have a knowledge and respect for the particularities of our church.
Joe responds as though I said we must have ethnic Rusyns. I did not say or mean to implicate anything of the kind. The idea that this imbroglio has anything to do with ethnicity per se rings hollow to me. How many of the people in Denver have any sense of Rusyn identity? Probably very few.

We've been talking about the distinction between ethnicity and Duch in the "Becoming Byzantine". My guess: ethnicity had nothing to do with what happened at Holy Dormition. By viewing the problem in this way (which strikes me as a projection from those in very ethnic particular churches) we foreclose on gaining a real understanding of it.

Traditions:
I await a discussion of the criteria and norms for determining authentic tradition and its organic developments in our particular church.
One that goes beyond: here's something I think is neat, or something I do not like. I start with a very simple model, de-Elkoization to turn of the century practice here and/or abroad of the South-West Rus recension. But keep the Elko-era transition from to English, and avoid re-visiting the calendar issue. In other words Joe's fairy-land. And let's implement the 1940's Ordo. That's already a lot of work to do.

I look forward to hearing the model of others. And to discern its respect for particularity or lack thereof.

Joe: Your story about the planned destruction of
of our church is very interesting. What did you read today?

--Joe Thur wrote: Our Metropolia IS coming up with a truer Prostopinije that fits the English translation. This also includes a vespers and matins book. I've seen it and I've sung it at our seminary chapel. It is very good. It is the first place where I got to hear our beloved Prostopinije being chanted faithfully.--

This �new� music cannot be sung by a congregation. The people here at the cathedral have a petition making the rounds asking the archbishop to remove the cantor because the new music is so bad no one can sing it. Holy Week and Easter was a disaster and people are leaving and not coming back. Collections are half what they were before this cantor came. Fr. Jason�s ordination was a disaster. No one but the cantor and his half dozen helpers sang and you could hardly tell they were singing in English. And the archbishop asked in his homily why everyone looked so glum? Why do we have to hire a Roman Catholic to re-write our chant? We have plenty of talented cantors who can do this if our bishops would just have respect for their talents and not always consider Roman Catholics to be better. This guy has absolutely no experience in cantoring and no one can sing with him. What good is new music if it chase everyone away?

//Devoted parishoners are more important to the vitality of a parish than are detached ones. No kidding. Any suggestion, however, that our choice is limited to these cases - devoted converts and lethargic cradles - is silly. This is phony dilemma. Its presupposition really paves the way for problems not solutions.//

djs,

My response was rhetorical. Didn't Jesus mention something about cutting out your eye if ...

Of course, each parish is a mixture of different people on different journeys. But as a cradle Rusyn Catholic, I have witnessed families turned away simply because they weren't hunkies. This is the truer silliness.

//I write that it is important for people in leadership positions to have a knowledge and respect for the particularities of our church.//

This is very important, indeed. But that respect for the particularities of our church goes beyond the liturgical aspect. In canon law, there is also the theological, spiritual and disciplinary aspects of our rite. How we worship is one thing; how we live out our lives as 'church' is another.

//Joe responds as though I said we must have ethnic Rusyns.//

Did I?

//The idea that this imbroglio has anything to do with ethnicity per se rings hollow to me. How many of the people in Denver have any sense of Rusyn identity? Probably very few.//

So what is the problem if they don't have any sense?

//I await a discussion of the criteria and norms for determining authentic tradition and its organic developments in our particular church.//

OK. You're the expert. Tell us. What criteria and norms does Holy Mother Church use to determine authentic tradition and its organic developments?

//I start with a very simple model, de-Elkoization to turn of the century practice here and/or abroad of the South-West Rus recension. But keep the Elko-era transition from to English, and avoid re-visiting the calendar issue. In other words Joe's fairy-land.//

Why would you call the de-Elkoization a fairy-land? Elkoavia was a fairy-land. And the Big Elk got taken away one day ... And what about the "calendar issue?"

//And let's implement the 1940's Ordo. That's already a lot of work to do.//

That Ordo has been promulgated in my eparchy since the 70s. Has it been implemented in Pittsburgh? Right now, our heirarchs and liturgical commissions are studying and preparing newer translations. Ours is a living church. Have you ever done spring cleaning?

//Joe: Your story about the planned destruction of of our church is very interesting. What did you read today?//

What "planned destruction?" Did I actually write that?

Joe

Subdeacon Randolph,

The Psalms are the Grail Translation (original, non-inclusive version), the commons and propers are new translations done by the Liturgical Commission.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

Frank,

Hmmmmm. I've been writing music based on our Prostopinije for a number of years and have been singing our church hymns according to those same melodies. The people can and do sing - even little children.

When I started cantoring in my current parish I had several old timers accuse me of changin their religion ... simply because I sang hymns according to a different tone! Yet such folks are the same ones who don't sing anyway; they just write letters to bishops complaining. The same folks complained about me allowing young women and girls singing with the cantors. They couldn't decide if it was "too Orthodox" or "too Protestant." The girls have brothers that serve at the altar, and I invited them to sing in our little schola. We sing nothing but Prostopinije. Our youngest chanter is about eight years old and she can really sing! Many still complain about us moving our cantor stand up to the front of the temple. Yet, we did this at our 25t parish anniversary when Bishop Basil visited us. Every parish is different and these things need to be taken into account. Our eparchy's "cantor director" never uses cantors, but always brings along the 'choir' to sing for the people so they can "hear Mass."

Joe

There are already two (02) Byzantine Catholic parishes in this city, according to the article [archden.org] from the Denver Archdiocese, one Ruthenian and one Ukrainian. Why then will this new "Russian" parish go under the RCs? Why not at least function out of one of these other buildings? Maybe I am missing something but it seems like almost any BC parish would be more adequate than a RC parish for this.
Tony

--Joe Thur wrote: Hmmmmm. I've been writing music based on our Prostopinije for a number of years and have been singing our church hymns according to those same melodies. The people can and do sing - even little children.--

This is probably because you can arrange our chant in a style people can actually sing. The stuff coming out of the seminary and sung at the cathedral is so horrible that no one can pick it up and sing it.