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Well .. umm ... err ... I actually use and follow the music I got from the seminary. Most of us do it without sheet music since we've learned the tones. My wife, a Latin Catholic(!), is our pripiv chanter.

What is funny, Frank, is when I began using this more faithful version of our chant, some other old timers came up to me and told me that I cantor like the professors of old. Now, I am no expert on the situation in the Pittsburgh archeparchy, and I have not clue about the situation at the Cathedral.

Cantor Joe Thur

I doubt this "split" is over sand candle stands.

The old-timers are probably much happier now that all these new folks who weren't part of "our people" are leaving.

Why did the new people come? They saw a living and vibrant faith that embraced the fullness of Byzantine tradition and they were drawn to it. Complaints about sand candle stands and singing the Paschal troparion in Greek (along with Slavonic and English) are just excuses to complain.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

--Joe Thur wrote: Well .. umm ... err ... I actually use and follow the music I got from the seminary. Most of us do it without sheet music since we've learned the tones. My wife, a Latin Catholic(!), is our pripiv chanter.--

You must be the exception. No one can sing the new music that has been published over this last two years. It�s horrible. No one can even tell if the cantor is singing in English or Slavonic. People are leaving and not coming back. It must be stopped. There was nothing wrong with the music in the gray book. We don�t need troparia and alleluias that go on for an hour with dozens of notes for each syllable. I hope the petition succeeds and this �cantor� is removed and sent back to the Roman Catholics.

The one common thread in all these complaints is about having former "Latin Catholics" serving them as cantors and priests. This tidbit is what keeps popping up in these threads dealing with parishioners whining to their bishops. Is this the real turmoil: the realization that our very own are not going to be around to serve our communities because we were heavily involved in chasing them away? Don't bite the hand(s) that feed you, especially if was once your neighbor.

Joe

David,

A big Catholic BINGO!

I just hope these other communities don't have their precious lecterns moved on them. B-r-r-r-r-r-r-r. It might change their religion and then they will no longer believe in God.

Joe

Frank,

Are you suggesting that we ignore the Typicon and forget all those saints and their feasts to make "Mass" a quicky? This is because we love to be in church and remember the saints. At funerals, we also take all the Hymns to St. John Damascene.

As for our bishops respecting the cantorship, they should ordain them. It is interesting how our traditions began to die out when we stopped ordaining cantors and started to send our seminarians to Illinois with the Benedictines. I believe our parish finance boards and accountants get more attention than cantors. But we wing it nonetheless.

Cantor Joe Thur

That's my greatest fear

The dreaded lectern debacle!

If it spreads around the country we're finished!!

--Joe Thur wrote: Are you suggesting that we ignore the Typicon and forget all those saints and their feasts to make "Mass" a quicky? This is because we love to be in church and remember the saints. At funerals, we also take all the Hymns to St. John Damascene.--

No. I don�t care how many troparia are sung. I don�t like when a single tropar takes an hour to sing because there are dozens of notes for each syllable. The alleluias sung at the cathedral now have at least 20 notes for �A�, another 20 for �le�, another 20 for �lu� and about 25 for �ia�. The prokimens, tropars and much of the rest of the new music is just as bad. Nobody can sing them. What good is it to publish music that no one can sing? What good is it to publish music that nobody can understand when it is sung?

Frank,

Can't help you there.

Let's pray for Fr. Frank in Denver, Colorado, as he begins his new ministry.

Joe

I agree that this is true silliness. And to me also very surprising.

Yes, agreed.

Yes.
"djs,
You want bone-fide Rusyn Greek Catholics serving as priests? "

It was your characterization of those who consider pre-Elko-land as a model.

That story.

--Joe Thur wrote: Frank, Can't help you there.--

So you don�t actually sing troparia with 20 notes for every syllable?

How about the alleluias that have 20 notes for �A�, 20 for �le�, 20 for �lu� and 20-25 for �ia�?

Have you even seen this junk?

I�ll take your comments as an admission that you really have no idea just how bad this new stuff coming out of the seminary is. We cannot let this person the bishops have hired to rewrite our chant to destroy our church. All they needed to do with the gray liturgy book was to remove the filioque.

Yes, and I hope that we can also find it within ourselves to pray for all of the present and former parishioners at Holy Protection. And for all of the people in our church, to show less hostility and a greater willingness to defer to one another out of love for Christ.

I see it too

What people have to realize is that the newer parishioners have already left the "comfort zone"

No kneeling on Sundays? Fine
Kneel on Sundays? Ok

No holy water fonts? Oh, OK
Holy water fonts? Sure, why not?

No pews? Wow, great
Pews in place? OK, fine

The newcomers, whether Latin or otherwise have left the comfort zone. They have already given up a lot of familiarity to be part of the new community and are usually quite flexible. They will tolerate quite a bit and adapt to changes within the parish with greater ease.

The newcomers have great affection for the church and often have adapted on more than one level: intellectual assent, practice, emotions.

Like all new relationships one becomes vulnerable and sensitive to criticism. If a person is perceived to be unwelcome, or the source of discomfort they will feel it. Believe me they will know.

Many of the lifetime cradle parishioners have never challenged their own faith. Have never been stared at in church. Have never been confused during the liturgy.

Some people clearly feel that they have inherited an entitlement, like a right of first refusal. They are in the comfort zone and resent any change enormously. They want that lectern in the corner, it just seems right.

But the newest members can be the most sincere, and more interested in having things right than in having things "the way we've always done it". And the newcomers will not be driving the changes, although they will more likely cooperate with them. They might be the greatest asset a bishop or pastor can have.

Michael

Michael,

Your make a nice point. But I think you overestimate the "comfort" of the lifetime members

That works both ways. If a person perceives that a newcomer views that particularities of that church, of that parish, as not "right", as you put it, they will feel it. Especially if the criteria of right and wrong are ill-defined - then it simply becomes viewed as a "personal" attack.

I suggest you lay your eyes on the 1906 Prostopinije out of Uzhhorod/Ungvar. Most of the alleluias are more complex than what is commonly sung in the BC parishes in the US.

Since it is almost 100 years old I don't think you can call it new. You may want to reconsider your accusations using the verb "rewrite."