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Dec 29th, 2019
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"A story was told to me about a priest who purposely did NOT put incense into the censer. The incense complainers STILL choked and coughed while the temple was being 'incensed'!!!
Such things are material for psychological case studies.
Joe "
Dear Joe,
I have a counter-story, one I know from personal experience, to demonstrate the other side.
Seems this priest was suspicious of folks who would conviently cough whenever he used incense. Well to show those people who was "boss" he put an extra grain of incense for every cough he heard. Unfortunately, I attended liturgy the day someone with bronchitis was there... :rolleyes:
You can guess what happened. I thought the fog had rolled in! :p
PAX
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Originally posted by Lemko Rusyn: Originally posted by Frank C:
[b]Doesn?t a collection that was half of what it was before this cantor came mean anything? Lemko Rusyn, Yes. The "Money Model" of Church is one that often gets ignored; like an elephant in the middle of a room that everyone tries to pretend isn't there. Joe
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--Joe Thur wrote: Hooshki papushki?!? That brings back memories. And I tell you - only memories. Memories of our tradition NOT being handed down, our languages not being taught, May Crownings, Stations, Fatima and the Blue Army, the Living Rosary, and ... the good ol' days when the immigrants complained to us about the priests destroying our religion. But they didn't have the money.�
May Crownings, Stations, Fatima and the Blue Army, the Living Rosary ARE NOT PART OF OUR TRADITION. Are you advocating that we bring these back, too?
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Originally posted by Frank C:
I understand your point. You want to make it just like it was in Uzhorod 100 years ago and not care whether the people like it or not. Frankly, (no pun intended) I've never been to Uzhorod and I hardly believe that everyone sang our music 'within the staff' for all occasions. A careful study of our Prostopinije shows a phobia for any notes outside the staff. I've heard conjectures that that was because the only ones singing at the Uzhorod cathedral were women and they all sang soprano. Not. I think it had to do something with a fear of writing musical notation outside the staff. But, of course, this is getting way off track from the original article about Fr. Chrysostom beginning a new Russian Catholic community. God bless him! Joe
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Originally posted by Frank C:
May Crownings, Stations, Fatima and the Blue Army, the Living Rosary ARE NOT PART OF OUR TRADITION. Are you advocating that we bring these back, too? Frank, Inside joke. You weren't around on that one. I apologize. Joe
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I look at some of the OCA music and settings that some such as David Drillock have put together - as well as the ACROD and others - beautiful settings of Kyivan, Obikhod, Lesser and Greater Znamenny, Carpatho-Russian chant, etc. with English texts. I have heard wonderful music in OCA, ACROD and ROCOR parishes with good English texts. It can be done.
There are always two major components to liturgical music: the music and the texts. If the translation is flawed or somehow not as singeable, it doesn't matter how good the musical setting is if you can't either teach it or sing it.
We have the music, a very rich Slavic musical tradition, whether Prostopinje, Samoyilka, Bulharski, Obikhod, etc. The problem is marrying it with texts in a singeable and teachable manner. What the ACROD, OCA, UOC or other Orthodox jurisdictions of similar musical tradition are doing in terms of music and texts shouldn't be overlooked.
Perhaps an approach like what is taking place in the UGCC should also be considered. A group of cantors and pastors (the pastors including Fathers Peter and Roman Galadza) got together and worked up a collective setting of the Liturgy and propers of the eight tones in English. This was a collective effort to come up with something that is beautiful, musically sound, singeable, and can take pastoral sensitivity (teachability, difficulty, etc.) into account.
Sorry, off track again. :rolleyes: Mnohaja i blahaja lita to Father Chrysostom and his community of St. Elizabeth the New Martyr! Perhaps if a few more Russian Catholic communities are formed, they can elect an Exarch.
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Originally posted by Frank C:
What text and music for the liturgy have you been using? John Vernoski's red liturgy book and weekly bulletin inserts with all the propers. Cantor John's musical sheets have taught our parish to sing once again. He takes into consideration the range of voices in our congregations. They've been around for many of our parishes for years. They are approved by Bishop Andrew of Passaic. We also find the 'new' music singable too. We've been using it for vespers for now. We are "slowly" introducing Podoben and Bolhar tones too. Cantor Joe Thur
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Dear Diak,
What is it about the Russian usage that inspires some of our people?
I'm just wondering - I think it is beautiful, but what draws people to it - greater ritualization, what?
Alex
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Diak,
What is it about the Russian usage that inspires some of our people?
I'm just wondering - I think it is beautiful, but what draws people to it - greater ritualization, what?
Alex Its for people who are tired of waiting around ...
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Frankly, (no pun intended) I've never been to Uzhorod and I hardly believe that everyone sang our music 'within the staff' for all occasions. A careful study of our Prostopinije shows a phobia for any notes outside the staff. As I understand it, originally the various tones were noted to be sung in different registers. Bokshaj, presumably for ease of notation, transposed things to fall between the lines. Of course, something was lost in this transposition. The vocal range required for prostopinije -- octave ranges in the melody - can be a bit of a challenge for casual sngers. Obikhod is very simple by comparison.
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Originally posted by Diak:
Sorry, off track again. :rolleyes: Mnohaja i blahaja lita to Father Chrysostom and his community of St. Elizabeth the New Martyr! Perhaps if a few more Russian Catholic communities are formed, they can elect an Exarch. Where are you getting that this parish is named in honor of St. Elizabeth the New-Martyr?
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--Joe Thur wrote: John Vernoski's red liturgy book and weekly bulletin inserts with all the propers. Cantor John's musical sheets have taught our parish to sing once again. He takes into consideration the range of voices in our congregations. They've been around for many of our parishes for years. They are approved by Bishop Andrew of Passaic.
We also find the 'new' music singable too. We've been using it for vespers for now. We are "slowly" introducing Podoben and Bolhar tones too.�
Are these the bulletin sized sheets on white paper with line draw icons? Our cantors before the current one used these and we able to easily join in the singing. They are not used anymore and nobody can sing the new junk. The new music is just not singable. Here in the cathedral the cantor sings them by himself. We sit and wonder if he is singing in English or Slavonic because we cannot understand him.
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Alex, Perhaps it's the Third Rome stuff, and the wish to be Great. I have the feeling that some folks think that Muscovite practice is the litmus test for authenticity and Easterness. (Of course, we were practicing in the Byzantine-Slavonic Rite 500 years before the Kyivan Metropolitans moved to Moscow  ).
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Frank,
Again, I can't help you there. I use what works.
Joe
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Tony, did you not read the original article which spawned this discussion: http://www.swimmingthetiber.blogspot.com/ I'll quote: It will actually take the form of two parish communities, sharing the same facility: St. Elizabeth's of Hungary will remain a Roman Catholic parish, while the sister church, St. Elizabeth the New Martyr, will be a Russian Catholic parish.
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