www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Religious Revivals in Eastern Europe

Although I don't entirely agree with this article, it's still interesting nevertheless. More impressive is the fact that the author is a progressive Catholic.

http://www.agreeley.com/articles/eeurope00.htm

RELIGIOUS REVIVALS IN EASTERN EUROPE
(Article suppressed by the London Tablet)

by Andrew Greeley

Enough research has been done on religion in Eastern Europe that one can say with considerable confidence that religion is reviving in the former socialist countries. At a recent conference at Nuffield College (Oxford) European scholars (Geoff Evans of Oxford and Ariana Need of Amsterdam) and American scholars (Michael Hout and myself) were able to compare notes and discover a convergence of findings. There are two major religious changes in the former socialist countries, one obvious and astonishing, the other more subtle but in the long run perhaps more important and, alas, more likely to be missed.

There is, first of all, the dramatic revival of religion in Russia, now so obvious that no one can dispute it. Three out of five Russians say that they believe in God, a higher rate than in West Germany, the Netherlands, and the Scandinavian countries. Two out of five say that they didn't used to believe in God but do now. 58% describe their religion is Orthodox, though only one out of ten were raised Orthodox. The majority of Russians want baptisms, weddings and funerals in church and agree that religion provides the moral basis for life and a support for family relationships. Almost half of them attend church services at least once a year and one out five pray at least once a week.

Thus nine years after the abortive Communist coup that brought Boris Yeltsin to power, Orthodoxy has reemerged as a major force in Russian life, so important indeed that, when Boris Nicoalaevitch resigned as president, the Patricarch Alexei, in full robes, stood besides him. Half a decade ago such a resurgence of Orthodoxy was dismissed, perhaps not unreasonably, as impossible when I reported the first survey results, collected the same year as Yeltsin's rise to power. Now the religious revival in Russia, perhaps the most dramatic in human history, has become so obvious that it is taken for granted. Patently the millennium-long Russian religious heritage was too strong to be destroyed by seventy years of sometimes vicious but almost always inept Socialist oppression. Vladimir of Kiev triumphed over Karl Mark. (Drs. Evans and Need reported that the proportions believing in God and affiliating with Orthodoxy in the Ukraine and Beylorus were somewhat smaller but not basically different from those in Russia).

The second revival is more subtle but affects eight former Socialist countries on which we have data - in 1991 and 1998 Slovenia, Hungary, East Germany, Poland, and Russia and in 1998 the Czech Republic, Latvia, and Bulgaria. On a scale that combines (the highly inter-correlated variables) of belief in life after death, heaven, and "religious" miracles, the younger birth cohorts, especially those born during the nineteen seventies and the older cohorts, especially those born before nineteen thirty, have higher scores than the intervening cohorts. More concretely it would appear that the children share with (and sometimes exceed) the grandparental generation in the religious hope, which the parental generations seem to have rejected. This "U curve" exists, with somewhat varying shapes and at varying levels, in every country and is always statistically significant. Moreover no such curves can be found in any Western country. Only in Poland is there a negative correlation between educational attainment and spiritual hope - and that slight. At a time when religious leaders in the West bemoan the lost of religious faith among the young, the former socialist countries witness a dramatic rise of religious faith. How can this be explained? Perhaps the young in the former socialist countries have a different story about God than do their parents. An item asked in two surveys inquired whether the respondent thought that God was concerned with humans as persons. When answers to this question were added to the analysis, every single one of the eight U curves flattened out. The resurgence among the young of religious hope was linked to a rediscovery of a God who cares. When the burden of Socialist oppression was lifted, those born after 1970 found themselves more likely than their immediate predecessors, to believe in a God who is concerned about them personally - even in Poland! Far from being a phenomenon of "New Age" religion, it would appear to be a rebirth of age-old religion. Of its very nature this revival is invisible because it affects personal faith and hope. Church attendance normally correlates with advancing years. The nineteen seventies cohort is not yet old enough to return to church-going. It may never become more religiously active. In all eight countries confidence in Church leaders has fallen sharply in the last decade. Hannah Borowek and Gregoriez Gabinksi have edited a collection of essays which analyze the response of Eastern European churches to their new freedom. In every country, they report, the principle concerns of the churches were to reassert their political power, their religious monopoly, and their moral control of the population. Small wonder that they lost the confidence of their people. One would think that the religious leadership in Eastern Europe would have to be brain dead not to notice the possibilities for evangelization among those under thirty years old. However, since one hears nothing about this revival of faith in a God who cares, one suspects that they are not aware of it. Like religious leaders in the West, they do not need sociology to tell them about the needs and the problems of their people. Nor the opportunities.

Drs. Need and Evans tell us that religion is stronger in Catholic countries than in Orthodox countries, though they offer no explanation for this finding. In our data, only Latvia provides a sufficient number of respondents to compare Orthodox, Catholic, and Lutheran respondents. In fact the U curve for Catholics is higher. European sociologists, I learned at the Nuffield meeting, are willing to admit that Catholics are more resilient to the pressures of "secularization" as they call it but they don't essay explanations. My hunch is that "secularization" may in fact represent the final waning of the elan of the Reformation. Catholics are more persistent in their heritage because they have different stories about God and world and the relationship between the two - David Tracy's analogical imagination. However, in the Catholic countries in Eastern Europe, the rejection of the Church's sexual ethic is almost as complete as it is in the West. Since sex is the principle preoccupation of Catholic leadership, it is very likely that they will ignore the resurgence of faith among the young and continue to denounce the paganism of their young people. They will agree with Cardinal Ratzinger that there is a terrible loss of faith and remain unaware of the bright promise in the youthful discovery of a God who cares. Thus they will miss completely one of the great religious opportunities of the last hundred years and overlook what is perhaps the best current hope for the future of Catholicism in Europe.

Andrew Greeley

(Father Greeley teaches sociology at the University of Chicago and the University of Arizona.
The University of California Press has recently published his book The Catholic Imagination).

Most encouraging!

Incognitus

Indeed it is. Greeley has also written much refuting the common notion of a religious decline in Europe. Greeley argues(as do I but from a more traditionalist perspective) thats theres much more complexity to the question. In some areas of Europe, yes the faith is in decline. But in others its actually reviving. In many other areas, its pretty much stable.

Then of course there's the question of which churches are declining. Liberal churches are hit the worst, while traditionalist churches are thriving(especially in France). So its really the mainstream churches(with watered-down theology and rituals) that are in trouble.

Not only that theres the question of where churches get their support. Many churches in Europe are state supported, so they really dont need an active laity to stay alive. In contrast, churches in America and the Third World need an active laity to stay alive and have to stay ahead of big competition.

So in many ways its more an issue of institutional incompetence in Europe than actual lack of religious belief in Europe.

I recent read a sociological report claiming that non-mainstream(and more traditionalist based) Christian groups have risen in Europe.

As is true in America as well! Human beings need more than watered down faith, they need age-old truth.
Michele

The problem with Russia, as I have seen and heard first hand with some young Russians that I have met, is that although they identify themselves as Orthodox, they don't really practice Christianity or Orthodoxy too much. Although I don't doubt that they believe, and I don't doubt that the religious cultural identity they were deprived of for decades means alot to them, they are never the less, just as seduced by the material,(something which they were also deprived of for decades) if not more so, as Western Europeans are.

Atleast in this country, Christians do tend to care about spiritual and ethical values and society. In Europe, this perplexes people. They don't understand us. They just accept the way society has become. We always have the tension of wanting to fight society's evils. Religion and religious values sees to mean a bit more to us here.

The whole world is juggling with trying to balance their belief in God and the religious and/or spiritual life with the 'good life' in a way which is unprecedented in the history of man. The problem is not so much in those that attempt the struggle to balance, but in those that have blatantly turned their faces from God, faith and religion in favor of the material and pursuit of the 'good life'.

I have met persons of this persuasion in this country, in Western European countries, and in Russians. This is modern man's and the Church's (both the Eastern AND Western lung of it) biggest challenge ever. No one is really immune. May our Lord God have mercy on us all.

In Christ,
Alice

Some of us would dispute this; in America, it has been said, religion is a mile wide and an inch deep. In Europe, there is a deep and visible cultural foundation that is hard to shake.
For example, a born-again Christian in the US is more likely to be divorced, and the "divorce belt" runs pretty much across the same territory as the Bible Belt. There is in American Christianity a deep subjectivity, a sort of lived-in secularism, that strikes the European Christian as strange.
For example, it is often cited that the USA is the most religious place on earth [not true, by the way. It is West Africa, where virtually 100% say they believe in God, and 82% attend weekly church services], yet abortion laws are among the most permissive anywhere, and pornography is both produced and consumed disproportionately.
Not to mention the more controversial fact that born-agains and Catholics disproportionately support American militarism and capitalism.
It isn't so simple!
- Daniel

This article seems to have been written in 2000. Is the revival still strong in Eastern Europe?

Dear Daniel,

I certainly did not intend to insinuate that American faith is simple. It is complex.

However, I stand by my assertions about Europe. My husband and I travel there frequently, have lived there, and have family in England and Greece, as well as acquaintances and friends from other EU countries.

Abortion is just as rampant, divorce just as common, and pornography just as consumed there. The only difference is that, in general, no one cares. One only need to watch television in any country to see what is on the airwaves.

Another example I will leave you with is this: in every single church and cathedral I visited in Italy, there were nothing but tourists. ONLY in Saint Mark, Venice were there two older women praying in a side chapel, where I joined them, much to the perplexity of all who saw me, and in St. Peter's where there were masses being said in chapels which were lightly attended, (where I also joined). I experienced the same in Montreal, Canada recently. On the other hand, one need only step into St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC any time of any day to see hundreds of WORHSIPPERS in private prayer or attending Mass...the tourists looking around are the silent 'outsiders', not the other way around.

Ofcourse, as I said before, we and our European counterparts are really all in the same boat in the end: that of the allure of the world.

As I told my priest the other day, who agreed with my philosophy: it was much easier to be a Christian in the Middle Ages in Europe where Christianity and religion were everywhere, as was misery and dependence on God for survival from the moment you woke up to the moment you went to sleep. Another gentleman in my Bibly Study said it eloquently: man has accomplished so much today that he feels he really doesn't NEED God. Thus, the struggle, if you chose it between the material/secular and the spiritual--problem is that too many have chosen the former rather than the latter as they prefer not to engage in the battle.

In Christ,
Alice

Of course it was easier to be a Christian in the Middle Ages, east or west, than in the modern world.
In fact, I don't disagree with much of what you have said. I have only traveled in Italy [outside of the US, where I have wandered through every state except Alaska, Hawaii, and South Dakota [!]] but I have seen much more faith in my limited travels [did you go to Assisi?; a truly blessed place]?
What I would disagree with is your more positive assessment of faith in the USA. I think it shallow, emotional, subjective.
To get more personal, my bride has an aunt, married three times, who currently is living with a married man, who is in process of getting a divorce. She claims to be a born-again Christian, watches TBN and sends money to Joyce Myers.
She defends her life with the typical subjectivist arguments, which in fact in essence mean "It must be of God, for it makes me feel so good."

PS: I know I really get on your nerves, but know I love you!
-Daniel

Dear Daniel,

Well, my friend, sometimes you do get on my nerves a wee bit, but tonight you are not!!! *WINK!*

I hear what you are saying about the aunt.

America is full of divorces and people who just don't keep the commitments they made before God. Marriage is not easy, but I would think that divorce is more difficult in so many ways. I just can't figure such people out, I really, really can't.

It seems that they really do give in to the 'feel good' mentality which permeates our society. It is even sadder when they are practicing Christians.

We are in agreement.

Unfortunately, I did not get to go to Assisi. I would love to return to Italy and see the spiritual treasures which I have not yet seen in beautiful Rome, like the Sacred Steps, the wreath of thorns, the chains of St. Peter, and ofcourse, Assisi. Thank you for the thumbs up about the birthplace of St. Francis. What I did love about Italy besides the art, architecture (and ofcourse, the food) was all the religious history...I can't remember the town now or the full story, but I remember being impressed by the story of the 'Corpus Christi' miracle.

In Christ,
Alice

Alice,

Was it Orvieto, built on a lava mountain, outside of Rome?

I went inside the cathedral there (the facade is one of the ones I mentioned to Fr. Anthony on another thread; gorgeous) and saw the Host that bled in the hands of a Bavarian priest who was traversing there and doubted the Real Presence.

But I think the miracle actually occured in Bolsena...don't know how exactly it turned up in Orvieto. Maybe I'm confusing two miracles.

Here's a picture of the Orvieto duomo:
[Linked Image]

Logos Teen

Dear Garrett,

I remember that it was a small town outside Rome...

Fondly,
Alice

Yes what you describe is what is commonly referred to as "Cultural Christianity". Although not perfect, I will have to say I prefer it over the shallow nature of Christianity witnessed here in America.


True to an extent....but much of it tends to be of a very trival and petty nature IMHO.Also, there have been considerable Social Christian movements of significance arising in Europe as well.

Exactly my point.

I also firmly agree with this. Not to mention there's a higher intellectual quality to European Christianity than to American Christianity.

American Christians more heavily rely on the Bible than European Christians. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it tends to lead to Biblical literalism and "bible thumping"; which has lead to often ridiculious consequences.

Wheras European Christians have more familiarity with say the Church fathers or Thomas Aquinas or other Christian thinkers. You rarely see this in American christianity.

In fact in its whole history, American Christianity has failed to produce thinkers on the level that we've seen in Europe. A great majority of the great thinkers even in the modern era were Europeans.

This is also true, even when it's a direct challenge to Papal teachings. There's much more I can say about this!

Yes in many ways. During WYD, I watch a report done by European Journal about young Slovak pilgirms and how Catholicism is actually relatively well there. They also did another report about the growing number of nuns entering monastaries in Romania, and how it conicides with a resurgent of faith there.

Well I have to say I envy you in some ways. I love Europe and have always wanted to travel there. Hopefully when Im older(Im 21 now) I'll be able to.

So far, Ive only been able to travel to St. Petersburg, Russia. That was an interesting experience.


Hmmmnn.....thats interesting, I read reports about a religious revival in Italy. Especially the sociological study done by Massimo Introvigne and Rodney Stark titled http://www.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=ijrr
"Religious Competition and Revival in Italy: Exploring European Exceptionalism"

I suggest you read it, it may interest. They also note why churches are empty in Europe as opposed to say America and Africa. Namely that the church leaders are not actively seeking attendents. This is for several reasons, namely that they either enjoy a religious monopoly and/or state support. Basically the religious institutions in Europe have become corrupt and complacent.

This is quite different in America and Africa, where churches have to actively seek attendents to stay alive and stay ahead of major competition(either fellow Christians in America or Islam in Africa).

The churches in Europe(or at least the mainstream ones) are not offering the people anything worthwhile and so the people dont respond. Yet many non-mainstream Christian movements have done quite well in Europe, because they offer more vitality. The study shows that in Italy, for example, membership in groups like Opus Dei has risen.

Dr Geoffrey Hull wrote an interesting article about the same happening in France, where he states:

http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1991/oct1991p12_711.html

"The traditionalist movement in France is today far more vital than 'mainstream' Catholicism, whether ultramontanist or liberal. Churches and chapels where the 'immemorial' Mass is offered by priests of the late Archbishop Lefebvre's Society of St Pills X or under the 1984 Indult are generally well-attended, whereas the more numerous parish churches and cathedrals given over to the Novus Ordo liturgy of Vatican II are more often than not close to empty, even in former bastions of religious practice like Brittany and Alsace."


Not only that, there have numerous reports also showing that during important holidays like Christmas, churches are actually filled in Europe. Large numbers of Europeans still travel to places like Lourdes and Fatima to find strength in their faith. Recordings of Gregorian chants and other sacred music are among the best selling in many parts of Europe as well.

There's far more complexity to the question than may appear at first sight. Im not saying that there isnt room for great improvement in Europe, there's plenty of work that needs to be done. What I am saying is that its not all doom and gloom as many try to say it is.


Ive already explained why that maybe so above. Plus theres also the question of different attitudes of the significance of church attendence. To an American Christian it may have more significance while to a European Christian it might not have as much.

For example, Charles Peguy was about as staunch a Catholic intellectual as there could be in early 20th century France. Yet he never attended mass in his life(largely because of his wife, who remained an atheist, but still).

Hi Kyivan Catholic,

Well, I envy YOU in that you went to St. Petersburg, Russia! I hear that it is awesome!

Although the studies you cite are encouraging, one only need to read what the Pope said about small Christian enclaves becoming the norm for Europe to understand that there really is a problem...I am not saying that it is all doom and gloom, but modern day Europe leaves much to be desired as far as Christianity goes. Especially if you compare it to the not so distant past and the traditional, family and church values which most Europeans espoused...then again, we have changed alot here too in these past four to five decades. Organized religion just doesn't mean alot to them or alot to many of us here either...this is the topic we are philosophizing about at my Bible Fellowship because Father hears it from young people and adults all the time.

In Christ,
Alice

To All,

I believe that 'Toqueville', when visiting this country in the first half of the 19th century in order to study the penal system, said that he was amazed at how religious the people here are. He contributed it to the fact that we didn't have an established religion.

Now I know that the French revolution was against the Catholic Church, (I have heard that by RC church leaders), and that one out of every two people guillotined was a priest. I know also that there was a great shortage of priests in France after that, and for that reason Saint Vianney, the Cure of Ars, was allowed to become a confessor since he did poorly in Latin.

I also know that before Vatican II, 90% of the Italians were considered to be in a state of 'excommunication'. And if we consider the wars, civil and otherwise, between the communists and fascists, especially in Spain; it doesn't show a very pretty picture of Christianity in Europe.

We know that in Portugal religion was being surpressed at the time of Fatima. So I'm surprised that anyone would consider the Europeans more devout than we are....even within our present 'secular' condition.

Also in Europe there is a definite line between politics and religion. They are shocked that God can even be mentioned or considered because they relate it to either a 'monarchy' or 'nationalism'. Democracy and it's politics is supposed to have no God.

Our nation here was built on totally different standards than those in Europe. We 'rebelled' against the 'annointed' King and by doing this we had to present to the world that we too had a 'divine' mission. It was for this reason all our founding fathers mentioned and re-mentioned God in every way they could. That though was not so in Europe. Once they got around to kicking the monarchy out, God went with it.

Now what I think happens to people when they go on a religious pilgrimage is that they tend to meet people with the same interests. Yet that is not Europe. If one has relatives, friends and/or acquaintances in any of those countries, they will realize that the concept of 'God' is very alien to them. Yet when it comes to horoscopes....

For heavens sake they've been massacring one another for the past 100 years.

Zenovia

Indeed it is! It has beautiful churches, and I was lucky enough to watch a religious service done at the exact same church that the Tsarivich Alexi was baptised in.

Well it depends on what the Holy Father specifically means by that. Usually when people talk about the crisis in Europe, they usually mean the low attendence rates in Europe as opposed to America. Yet there are several factors that can be attributed to that.

I firmly agree. Although I usually hate using this analogy: but I prefer to see the glass half full. But most people discussing this topic dont even see the glass half-empty, but rather a glass with only 3 drops of water left.


Well there is debate about that.

True. When you look at it, the faith has largely declined institutionally in Europe, but culturally it still has a hold there.

I sincerly doubt that is true. Do you have a source for this?

I still stand by my argument that Europeans have a higher quality of faith(especially intellectually) than Americans.

All those examples you cite are all interesting. Perhaps what it proves is that secularism in Europe is far more honest than its counter-part in America.

Here in America, secularist agendas are often dressed up as religious issues. Only a very few dare directly challenge Christianity, instead they often argue that either the faith needs to come into the 21st century or whatnot.

KC- You are forgetting that it is a tenet of the Americanist Church that Americans are the most devout, faith-filled people in the world. As a matter of faith, this is not up for debate.
[Actually, polls show West Africans are the most religious people on the planet, with practically 100% professing faith in God, and 82% attending church services weekly.]
-Daniel

Yeah thats quite true. Theres this notion that somehow God looks more fondly upon America than anyother nation, and that Jesus if given a chance wouldve been an American.

Dear Kyivan Catholic you quoted me as saying:

I also know that before Vatican II, 90% of the Italians were considered to be in a state of 'excommunication'.

You then answered:

I sincerly doubt that is true. Do you have a source for this?

I say:

I'm quite old. I was around then and recall reading it. Actually if I do recall correctly, Tuscani was totally communist after WWII, and I believe the government in Italy 'might' have been predominantly communist too.


You quoted me as saying:

So I'm surprised that anyone would consider the Europeans more devout than we are....even within our present 'secular' condition.

And you answered:

"I still stand by my argument that Europeans have a higher quality of faith(especially intellectually) than Americans."

I say:

Intellectualism doesn't matter as far as 'Grace' goes, and one's heart is really what it is all about.

You said:

All those examples you cite are all interesting. Perhaps what it proves is that secularism in Europe is far more honest than its counter-part in America.

I say:

I don't know. The Europeans will say, "well if there is a God", or "now really you went to school didn't you", or something like that, while we will say, "we believe in God", but in the meantime we will make His teachings what we want them to be".

At least it's politically correct here to believe, and if one believes they can attain God after death. Remember, the only sin that cannot be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. That would be the denial of God. God cannot enter one and bring him to Him if He is not allowed to.

Zenovia

Yes, Americans believe in God, but then, as St Paul reminds us, so do the demons. At least they have the sense to tremble...
-Daniel

I find it a difficult concept to speak of "American Christianity". Christians in the United States have not always been so "Christian" to one another.

In most European nations, most people belonged to one particular Church (Spain was Catholic, England was Anglican, Sweden was Lutheran, etc.). This has never been the case in the United States. Also, here in the USA, Luther's "sola fide" and "sola scriptura" have taken on lives of their own in numerous fundamentalist and evangelical churches. When a "faith community" limits itself to a bad translation of the Bible and claims to perfectly interpret it, friction results and factions develop. This also does not lend itself well to Christian scholarship.

I would venture to say that in the USA, there are Orthodox and Catholics whose faith is as deep as those in the Old Countries, who are interested in scholarship and meditating upon the mysteries of the Trinity, who reflect upon the role of the Most Holy Mother of God, and who believe deeply that Jesus founded His Church to teach all nations, but did not explicitly tell anyone to write a book and then say all revelation is contained within. They will be harder to find because they don't make the noise of a Jerry Falwell or Pat Roberston nor do they attend the mega-churches that have pretty singing but seem more like entertainment than worship.

The big problem with this is that this kind of "worship" attracts many since it demands little in sacrifice and understanding and the entertainment value can be easily spread to many. The simplistic "Where is that in the Bible?" question has led many out of the Catholic Church in Latin America and into the JWs and fundamentalist churches.

This type of worship has not caught on so fast in Europe, for a variety of reasons.

Even the Catholic Church in the USA can not be fairly compared to the Catholic Church in Europe - or Latin America. In Latin America, as well as Florida, Texas, the Southwest and California before they became part of the US, there was massive missionary activity from the Jesuits, Franciscans and other Catholic clergy. The US has a Catholic Church - East and West - and an Orthodox Church - built by immigrants who came before there were sufficient numbers of clergy to serve them. These immigrants and their children built churches, schools, hospitals, orphanages, colleges and universities, and monasteries with their own money and hard work, as minorites in an unfamiliar land.

The United States and Canada are two of the very few nations on Earth that would have Catholic parishes of each of the 22 Particular Churches that together are the Catholic Church.

Since the USA was not colonized by a Catholic nation and not originally evangelized by Catholic clergy, the USA does not have the Saints' festivals that are common in many towns and cities in Europe - or even Latin America. Rarely does one see a procession, like El Se�or de Los Milagros that the Latino Catholic Community has each October in Pittsburgh. Most cities and towns in the US named for saints or other Catholic figures were founded long before they became part of the US. Thus, the USA does not have the deep Catholic traditions that a nation like, say Poland would have.

Having blabbed on, it is the wish of everyone on this board that the people of Eastern Europe, after so much suffering and repression, find their way back to God, in whatever Church - Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or Latin Catholic - their patrimony and calling leads them to.

Im not calling you a liar, but I will have to ask for something to back this up. Could've been that you mis-read the statement, that the Pope excommunicated 90% of Italian politicians or something?

Dear Kyivan Catholic,

Actually, I don't think the Pope had anything to do with excommunications. I might be wrong...but it was quite common.

Zenovia

Dear Juan Diego you said:

"I find it a difficult concept to speak of 'American Christianity'. Christians in the United States have not always been so "Christian" to one another."

I say:

You know, if you would read up on history a little bit, and find out the attrocities that have occurred in 'ALL' the other countries in our world and during all the era's, maybe you wouldn't be so harsh on this country. Everything is relative you know.

For instance: I recall reading some pre-Civil letters about slavery by Northerners visiting the South. For one, they said that they would never have been so lenient with their own workers. The other thing is that the slaves themselves acknowledged that they had it 'very' easy compared to the Caribbean.

Maybe a good book or movie would be: America, America. I think it's by Elia Kazan. (I'm not sure). It's a good idea to find out exactly why so many people immigrated here.

As for being Christians, remember it is the Spanish attrocities on the Indians that are written about so eloquently nowadays.

Zenovia

Dear Juan Diego you said:

"The big problem with this is that this kind of "worship" attracts many since it demands little in sacrifice and understanding and the entertainment value can be easily spread to many."

I say:

Actually it's not entertainment value, but rather a Church adapting to the prevalent culture as it did in the Roman Empire. (We are a carry over from the predominantly pagan rites that existed). The music appeals to the senses of people that have been raised with it. Also a group of people gathering to worship God can affect one another. Remember, " wherever there are two or more gathered together in my name, I am among them".

That said, we know that it's an incomplete 'Church', but even those that have entered into the realm of 'God' through an incomplete method, is better than those that have never entered...no matter how complete their worship is. The important thing though, is that from that 'incomplete' Church, they can sometimes get a 'jump start' to the more 'complete' spirituality of a sacramental Church.

Hopefully, some day we will be able to appreciate what each other gives, and not only be concerned with how many the other is taking away....as if Christ is a commodity.

It's all in God's time!

Zenovia