www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall World AIDs Day - Festive?

This reply here is exactly why I post my thoughts and questions here.

Thank you Incognitus!

This bring new light, I was thinking of the past, the way HIV/AIDs has been treated in the USA.

Now that you mention access to healthcare and drugs, I can see the human rights issues that were raised in Africa.

That being said I must go on and disagree with you a bit.

I do not believe this. The cases of those who do not participate in a behavior that can lead to the contraction of HIV/AIDs are very few.

And for some of those who do get it this way is because their partner practiced the behavior that was risky.

I do believe that all HIV/AIDs cases can be traced back to immoral behavior.

Its not like the flu.

I have some experience in this as I have done much research. I worked in the healthcare field as a paramedic and learned alot.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

David,

I hate to sound insulting, but you have a lot more to learn.

Consider the immorality of the newborn infant who contracted HIV in utero.

Consider the immorality of the healthcare worker who contracted it by needlestick.

Consider the immorality of the patient in a third world country who contracted it after being treated with an inadequately sterilized instrument.

Consider the immorality of the hemophiliac who contracted it after receiving infected blood products.

Consider the immorality of the spouse who contracted it after intercourse within the married state.

and, finally,

Consider the immorality of all those souls who contracted it in one of the ways that you would expect, by using a dirty needle, or by having homosexual sex with an infected partner. Now, you can say "Aha!, I told you so!"

Do you feel better now David? Do you somehow feel vindicated in your damning all those others above as immoral because, ultimately, they can all be traced to these immoral and dastardly folk.

Do you truly believe that God is sitting in His heaven, a vengeful Diety, passing a judgement of suffering and death on so many people?

And, that you have somehow been designated His Vicar to call them - or even their behavior - immoral?

No, your answer would be that there is free will involved and you'd be right. Thank God, David that you have been so righteous in life as to never have made an inappropriate use of free will that had serious or untoward consequences for you. Would that you could teach those of us who are mere sinful creatures how to achieve the same state of perfection.

I am sorry if anyone sees this post as uncharitable, but I am fuming as I type, no longer certain if my words even make sense. I have buried friends who have made unfortunate choices in life that contributed to their untimely demise. I have yet to bury one and think, 'damn, he/she would still be alive, if he/she hadn't been so immoral!'

Neil

Neil, no you don't hate to sound insulting or you wouldn't. Also I will forgive you your uncharitable behavior for assumeing what I was saying rather than asking for clarification of what I mean.

I am very angry with your reply but as it is the season I will let it pass.

Very, very condescending and hateful of you here, if you did not understand what I was saying, which you obviously did, you should have asked me to clarify what I meant.

There is no immoral behavior done by any you said, the immoral behavior that it can be traced back to is that of others.

The newborn infant who contracted HIV in utero goes back to it's parents behavior.

The healthcare worker who contracted it by needlestick goes to the infected person who the needle was used on.

The patient in a third world country who contracted it after being treated with an inadequately sterilized instrument goes back to who those instruments were used on.

The hemophiliac who contracted it after receiving infected blood products goes to who donated the blood.

The spouse who contracted it after intercourse within the married state goes to the other spouse who's immoral behavoir allowed this to happen.

and, finally,

I do consider the immorality of all those souls who contracted it in one of the ways that you would expect, by using a dirty needle, or by having homosexual sex with an infected partner.

But not to say "Aha!, I told you so!"

Its a fact that HIV/AIDs is the result of immoral behavior, to ignore this, is to allow it to happen again.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

I think David has a very good point. Unless we encourage abstinence, AIDS will continue to spread.

Neil, calm down brother. I don't think David was judging anybody. He was looking to the root of the problem, to point a way toward solving it.

Lt

I would like to step into this thread to state a few things. I wrote this before David responded to Neil and I like much of what David says.

-

As Christians we are to minister to those in need. It does not matter how they came to their condition. As God�s love for each of us is unconditional so, too, must our love for one another be unconditional.

As Christians we are also to always make clear the unchanging moral Laws given to us by God and to call all people to make them the center of our lives. Twice a day the Church puts on our lips: �Blessed are You, O Lord, teach me your Commandments. Blessed are You, O Master, teach me your Commandments. Blessed are You, O Holy One, enlighten me with your Laws�. As Christians we are to call all the world not only to put their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior but also to actually follow His teachings.

I do understand what David is stating. I think Neil may have missed his point.

The newborn may not have contracted HIV in utero if his mom had remained abstinent until marriage.

The healthcare worker may not have contracted HIV by needlestick if people controlled their appetites for sexual activity outside of marriage and refrained from illicit drug use (or sought treatment to change their behavior when they became addicted).

The patient in the Third World might not have contracted HIV because of being treated by an inadequately sterilized instrument if proper health care was available.

The hemophiliac might not have contracted HIV from infected blood products if those donating blood had not lived lifestyles in which they themselves contracted HIV (or at least were honest about those lifestyles during the Q&A when you donate blood).

The person might not have contracted HIV from his or her spouse if that spouse had not engaged in immoral sexual activity outside of marriage.

The newborn, the healthcare worker, the Third World patient, the hemophiliac and the spouse are innocent. They nevertheless must live with the consequences of immoral behavior by others. I think David�s point is that if more people lived a moral live then fewer innocent people would suffer from this horrible disease. I don�t think that anyone can argue with David on this point.

Is anyone here saying: "Aha!, I told you so!"?

No. What is being said that choices always have consequences and that those who pay the highest price may be the innocent people one comes in contact with later in life.

Is God a vengeful God, passing a judgment of suffering and death upon so many people? Of course not. But the choices we make affect others. And the choices others make affect us. Sometimes those choices lead to suffering and death. We know for a fact that choices to engage in sexual activity outside of Christian marriage always have a higher rate of the possibility of disease, which could lead to suffering. This is all part of our free will to choose good or evil.

Should we expect perfection and sinlessness from every individual? Of course not. There is only one Sinless One. The rest of us all fall short.

But we are to call all people to reform their lives each day and attempt to imitate the life of Christ. To refuse to do so is not to follow Christ.

I think that the Vatican has provided guidance for us to follow regarding the horrible disease of HIV. We are minister to those in need without judging them. We are to realize and tell that whole world that all suffering is based in sin.

The Christian response is not: �damn, he/she would still be alive, if he/she hadn't been so immoral!�

The Christian response is: �damn, he/she would still be alive, if I hadn't been so immoral!� and to teach the world what this means.

Admin

Unfortunately, much of the "Christian" response has been like the former more then the latter.

This is one of the "issues" I have with forums such as this....

Brian, can you tell me how your reply has helped this discussion along??

What good is served by makeing a comment such as this?

I think that if you truly felt the need to make that comment, that you could have then followed it up with something constructive.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

David,

YOU SAID:

I do not believe this. The cases of those who do not participate in a behavior that can lead to the contraction of HIV/AIDs are very few.

And for some of those who do get it this way is because their partner practiced the behavior that was risky.

I do believe that all HIV/AIDs cases can be traced back to immoral behavior.

Its not like the flu.

I have some experience in this as I have done much research. I worked in the healthcare field as a paramedic and learned alot.

_________________________________________________

David,

For over 7 years I worked in business development / marketing for the world's largest HIV pharmaceutical / diagnostics company. My experience includes the development of a wide variety of molecular diagnostic assays, including immuno, viral load, and prognotic, including those for tranplant tissues. Additonally I have have been involved in the clinical evaluation of the second HIV neucleoside, the first HIV protease inhibitor, and the forementioned in triple combination. I was in volved in the ZVITAMBO project in Zimbabwe, Africa which studied the vertical transmisson of HIV from mothers to their neonates. The 5 years project studied 14,000 women and their children (28,000 people). This was done through our company and two leading North American medical schools. Additionally, I was involved in the analysis and development of new molecular plasma viral screening technologies for the world's blood supply. I have worked many leading virologists, health care workers, physicians, patient advocacy groups, governments, patients, and other scientists, including the now past president of the World's AIDS Association whom I know personally. I have been involved in the development in at least 20 clinical studies which have been published in leading peer journals. My education includes two university degrees; BSc Biology, BSc Economics. MBA to be completed....200?

The most important part of my job is understanding demographics, epidemiology, and medical trends and practices of infectious diseases. I too have done some research (it was my job for 7 years). So here goes....

On a global scale, 'immoral behaviour' as has been stated is just not the main reason for people contracting HIV. For this reason we have differing HIV clades (subtypes) on different continents.

In Africa, where the virus originated, there was an inter species trasmission (apes to humans). People were being infected for several generations by doing what they had been doing for many years - drinking the blood of apes. This is no more immoral than eating beef, sushi, kobasa, or macaroni and cheese. A large segement of Africa had been infected with the virus with no immoral behavior.

Now ad to this the following over about two generations (40 years).

(1) Poor health care practices - One syringe vaccinating a village of 400. If villager number 80 had the diseae, chances are very high that his neighboors number 81 to 400 would be infected.

(2) The chances of a mother passing her viral load to a neonate are about 50%. The chance of passing the virus through her breast milk are about 50-99%. So the children really don't have much of a chance.

(3) Civil wars in Africa have increased the number of infected women. Roaming gangs of thugs rape most women they find. The soldier obviously are not Christians and the women can't be judged immoral for this act. One member posted a message saying that "they should just zip it up".

(4) Many African countries are so poor that most people do not eat properly. If a drought happens, famine will follow, and of course children start to starve. For many mothers, the only option to keep their children alive is the sex trade. Yes, they will trade sex to keep their children alive. With what has been stated above, it is obvious that their chances of getting the disease will be high. In the short term, all they want is to keep their children alive - so if they die in several years from AIDS, at least their children will survive them.

I do not want to get into to much detail here, but I think you get the point, that it's not always 'black and white' - you know 'moral and immoral'. By using the word 'immoral' you are attempting to shame these people for being ill. It is this shame that causes them to be shunned by their communities and in some cases hate Christians. In many cases it may mean delayed medical treatment or worse.

I could continue about the blood supply, tatooing, homosexuals, drugs, hygenenic practices, etc.. until your eye balls are sore from the monitor - so I won't.

Until you have walked in others shoes it may be best to refrain from labelling people as 'immoral'. Speak to and about people kindly as God would like us to do. Care for those who are ill as if they were your sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, - because one day they may.

As a final technical note:
"Caching the virus in Utero" is not correct.
A mothers HIV viremia can't penetrate a womb and infect a fetus. The womb is an incredible fortress to a mother HIV virus. The child can however become infected through 'vertical transmission'. When the child is being born, the mother's HIV viremia (HIV in blood) can infected the child as it is being born, usually by penetrating through either the eyes or muccus membranes. Therefor the children will test negative antibody for up to 6 months. It is usually during this period of time they seroconvert due to the vertical transmission. Of course even if they escape vertical transmission, they can be infected by the mother's breast milk at a later time.

Yes, it was a pithy reply but I can't tell you how many times i have seen so-called "Christians" gossip about people with HIV (and this is often an excuse for them to come up with anti-gay jokes) instead of helping people affected. As Hritsko has said, this has lead people with HIV to come to hate Christianity in general because of the judgemental behavior of this sort of "Christian" in inverted commas. Thank God that there are true Christians who help with people affected by Aids/HIV and help to redress this very poor image.

I disagree strongly.

No one is shaming anyone for being ill.

Some choices are immoral choices.

Sometimes we suffer the consequences of the immoral choices we make.

Sometimes we suffer the consequences of the immoral choices others make.

Sometimes others suffer the consequences of the immoral choices we make.

Those who are innocent are never immoral and their sickness is never shameful.

Sadly, there are those who actively seek to silence Christians who speak to moral issues with accusations of attempting to bring shame upon those who suffer. Such accusations must be rejected.

Been there. Seen it. Deal with it.

David has served as a paramedic and I�ll bet he�s seen it, too.

David has not labeled a single individual as immoral. He has only spoken about immoral activity. There is nothing unchristian in what David wrote. The unchristian stuff comes from the people who seek to silence any discussion of morality and immorality in our daily lives.

Hritzko makes the claim that transmission of HIV is though cultural issues, such as eating of certain animal flesh or drink of their blood along with animal bites.

While this has occured, the pandemic of HIV/AIDs is not from these tranmission methods.

He also seems to blow off my experience, as a paramedic, in the healthcare field. I have dealt with his type before. As he goes in length to show his "credentials" as a way to show how "intelligent and educated" he is, where as I am just an ignorate grunt working in the field. I am sure your studies and work behind a desk makes you better than I am.

He then goes on to list 4 points, and all 4 of them still fall back to someone elses immoral behavior as to how HIV is contracted by the innocent.

I really see no use in his reply except to admonish those of use who are trying to look for the underlieing cause and to attempt to deal with that.

As LatinTrad said, "Unless we encourage abstinence, AIDS will continue to spread."


As for your reply Brian, I hope you aren't trying to lump me into that group and I will say it again. You did not help or provide anything constructive with your first reply, nor with your second. Your second only attempted to justify a slight you thought you were addressing in the first.

While you are correct that some people do as you say, are you not doing the same to them? Are you not gossiping about them and being judgemental towards them now?

Two wrongs do not make a right, just because someone is wrong and hateful, it is not right for you to wrong them and hate them.

I still do not see what I have done wrong, and when I have the Admin and LatinTrad in my corner, I know I am on the side of right.


David, the Byzantine Catholic.

I agree with Brian that when we who are Christian do not live moral lives ourselves we succeed only in chasing others away from Christ.

If what the Admin got out of your last reply Brian, is what you meant, then I also can agree with that.

I took it as you were lumping me in with that group, which is incorrect. If I was wrong about that then I apologize, I guess I am just getting a persecution complex here today.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

As Christians of any persuasion, we should show compassion to anyone afflicted with AIDS, REGARDLESS of how they contracted it. On the other hand the reality is that we now live in a society that increasingly tells us that we cannot criticise homosexual behaviour in any way shape or form. Nearly all AIDS support groups promote the homosexual agenda, so the only option for a Christian really, is too be helpful as they can, outside the parameters of official organizations.

Well, I think that the Admin and Latin Trad would be the first to say that they have no charism of "Infallibility"