www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Something about Mary

Dear All,

Please forgive me if I am being redundant on what has been posted in other rooms on other threads.

I have been Roman Catholic since '01. But I have questions on a number of issues. In particular, what i want to ask about here pertains to our Lady.

I do have affection and a love for my mother Mary but am totally turned off by many of the marian devotions that I see. Some of them just leave me scratching my head at the things they ask for. We were praying the rosary one night not too long ago at a bible study and the intentions that were listed in our rosary schema were like "For reparation for sins comitted against your immaculate conception." Maybe that is perfectly orthodox but it gives me the creeps.

On the whole I think i feel much more affinity to the Eastern approach to marian spirituality but i really know next to nothing about it. Are there any good books on the topic?

You stout westerners, do you have any insites or explainations to the extreme language used in many marian devotions? Why is the rosary used almost fanatically by some people as though it had some kind of special power? Why do some people speak always of Mary and little of her Son?

Thanks for taking the time to read my questions.

Jason Brim

My thoughts don't directly relate to the question you have on the theology of Mary, but....

I ocassionlay think that Mary is tangible. She was human, one of us, we could reach out and touch her. This makes an emotional connection with us mere mortals. Because she still appears to us today, in many ways, we can still reach out and touch her. In a sence we can tangibly touch heaven.

Once, many years ago, a woman called us to go out to a field here where there were "apparitions" and that was because one of the visionaires from Medjugore was here and received her visits there. She meant well, she truly loved the Lord(may her memory be eternal+), and was just excited about what was occuring there. Well this woman words were none to kind toward us when my husband, Deacon Stan, told her no, we weren't going. He felt that God was not calling us to go there, our plate was full where we were. She was furious, using a few #$*// words, saying that we were leaders and that is where we should be. Funny thing - we aren't Roman Catholic, their bishop had not sactioned it, and actually had told everyone stay away. But that did not matter, she was emotionally attached.

This is what I really feel happens with a lot of people it. It may be so with those you pray with to a certain extent. And I am not knocking anyone anywhere for their faith or praying the rosary!
God honors it and hears all of our prayers.

I should be so faithful in prayer.

Our Lady asks us to stand with her. She cuts her apron strings at some point and says now do as I do. Blessed Mother ask us to stand beside her, to not be afraid to share the Gospel message, and witness to the power and love of God. For some it is safer to pray than to act, and there are many who physically, emotionally, or mentally can only pray and that is ok. The rosary is a very powerful tool against satan, miracles constantly happen because of it's use. For so many people it is much easier to run to mama than to Dad, and that is what happens.

Just my thoughts, those of another mom with attached kids.

http://pontifications.classicalanglican.net/index.php?p=346

By our own Dr. Alex

Thanks Rose.

You raise some good points. With some groups I have encountered, I feel safe in saying they were Marian cults. And you are right, Christ gets forgotten in the near-worship of Mary. I think Mary would be the first to be appalled at this. She seems to me to be more interested in directing attention to her son, not to herself. And that rosary is almost considered a magical device, which it wasn't, isn't, and never will be. I realize the country of Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore, but at one point the Yugoslavian Bishops Conference did declare Medjugorge unworthy of belief. Of course, the rabid devotees will never accept any declaration that goes against one of their pet devotions. There is one lady locally who would get in her car and drive cross-country if she heard Mary was appearing somewhere on a garage door. I don't understand it, especially since Christ himself said that if we hear he is in the desert, we are not to go there. I think a good deal of it rests on the old but wise advice that groups and individuals need good spiritual direction to keep them from going to devotional excess and in wrong directions.

I agree with this.

Also, there was a major Marian heresy in southern Poland, I think in the 1930's.

The Pope had to excommunicate a lot of people, including clerics. Some priests went into schism and there is still a small remnant church that derives out of it.

Apparently most of those people went to confession and were received back into the church. Surprisingly, there is very little on the internet about it and I don't have time to search it out right now.

The point is, it can happen, and perhaps does happen among individuals that they cross that line and when you try to correct them you'll look like a liberal Catholic and be dismissed out of hand. Marian extremism is teflon coated these days, nothing will stick to them because there is a habitual reaction among all people who love Mary to rise up in "her" defense against even the slightest criticism.

Michael

I'm in total agreement here - I have been on the receiving end of some of their complete over the top type of intensity - and more or less been accused of non-belief into the bargain.

My own rule of thumb here, is that if something that is suggested makes me feel uncomfortable - then it's not for me.

And yes I do have a very strong devotion to Our Blessed Mother - She was a very great person and without Her I can't imagine what would have happened - but She is not God , has never been and can never be. She is the Mother of our Redeemer - and therefore worthy of our praise and we should attempt to be more like her - but we cannot make Her to be something She is not.

I hope these rambles make a bit of sense

Anhelyna

I am a former stout (literally) Westerner who studied for the RC priesthood even, and I could never get into Marion devotions. I just never felt right about it. Roman Catholic seminarians and priests are strongly encouraged to develop a good relationship with Mary, and I think it has something to do with loving a woman you can't touch, but I'm not going there. I was bothered by it, anyway, and got really scared when some guys tried to recruit me for the Legion of Mary... the name alone scared me off.

Now honestly, I know many priests who belong to the Legion of Mary and the group is good, but it just wasn't for me. I don't know, I too feel that Marion devotion goes too far... I even get uncomfortable when couples at a RC wedding pray before the statue of Mary.

I agree in that sometimes the devotion to Mary has gone to extremes.

What has always blessed and spoken to me is found in the story of the Wedding at Cana. When they have run out of wine she alerts her son by telling him that they have run out. He replies by saying, "My time has not yet come." She then tells the servants to "Do whatever he tells you." He does change the water into wine.[Cf: John:2:1-11.]

I ask for her intercessory prayer believing he continues to do what she asks him.

domilsean,

I had trouble with Marian spirituality when I returned to RC from evangelical Protestantism.
It was a slow process for me to appreciate and love Mary as my Mother (St. John 19:26-27).

Don't worry that the many Marian groups and devotions bother you. It's OK to be uncomfortable with them.

If you can say a Hail Mary, you have a healthy relationship with Mary, the mother of God.

Mary, star of the sea, lead us to our port who is Christ. (a favorite Marian prayer of mine).

Paul

Yes, I agree. Our devotion to Our Lady should be mature. Just as we mature, and our love for our own mothers matures. I think (not sure, not being there) that at the Bible study when some one mentioned the petition "against sins committed against her Immaculate Conception" I believe they were refering to abortion and birth control.

I can see why some Protestants think Catholics "worship" Mary. We venerate her because she is the Mother of God. But some people take the sentimentality too far. A few years ago I remember meeting people who were into the so-called visions of Bayside, NY. The ordinary of the diocese condemned them. (You occassionaly see postings on Catholic web-sites about it.)

What I find interesting is someone claims (usually a woman), that she is having visions of our Blessed Mother in her backyard, and you find out she has recently been to Medijore. Well, save your airfare. You can see those same visions in your own local neighborhood. I can't understand the idea behind changing the chains of rosaries into gold, for instance, but then, thats me.

I have been trying to develop a healthy relationship with Mary but haven't really found the resources to do so.

Can anyone recommend some sources?

Thanks

When I was became a Roman Catholic 20+ years ago(after an atheist upbringing), I just shrugged Mary off as peripheral. I could never figure out people who were utterly devoted to her or spoke so tenderly and affectionately about her.

It wasn't until God called me further East that I began to understand... Part of the problem is that whenever Marian hymns or prayers are included in the liturgies of the Western church, they stick out like a sore thumb -- what is THAT doing here? But in the Eastern liturgies, prayers to the Theotokos are as normal (and dare I say as essential?) as breathing. Now after 10 years of breathing those mysteries in the Melkite Church, I can honor her and offer prayers and praise -- without feeling like I've crossed over some irrational line.

Are there good resources for you to turn to? Find the closest Byzantine church and go! I don't think this is something you can attain through books and study.

I hear you. I was raised in a fundamentalist, dispensationalist, independant Baptist church. I don't think you can get much farther than that away from Catholic spirituality and Marian devotion. Mary played absolutly no part in my religious upbringing so she feels totally foriegn to me. Now, on the other hand I am grateful for other parts of my early religious instruction. I was taught about the trinity, the incarnation, that Jesus died for me etc.... which was a good prepration for the fuller truth of the Catholic church but sadly it lacked in other significant ways, notably concerning Mary and the communion of saints. To the Baptist communion of the saints is limited to the pot luck dinner in fellowship hall after church.

Jason

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

In order to put myself into a good frame of mind in relation to Mary I had to get rid of those statues with only her on them (you know the kind, they look good in bathtubs!)

My icons of the Theotokos all have her with Jesus in her arms. I have a nice Bavarian Madonna in my study too, it is very lovely with a naturalistic posture holding the child Jesus.

I intersperse Hail Mary's between my Jesus prayers: after every 25 I will say a doxology, or the creed or a Hail Mary. I am comfortable with this, I need to focus on God but I do not leave Mary out, I ask that she pray for me and with me as I pray.

That's as far as I go on my own, we praise her to the skies at church (I love the Marian hymns) and those praises make sense to me. I am comfortable with this level of devotion and cannot see any change in the future, but if my attachment grows further it will not be artificially induced.

Michael
+T+