www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Something about Mary

The icon of the Holy Protection of the Teotokos is without Jesus.

ok im going to step out on a limb here.

when i was protestant i was taught that Catholics replaced the role of the Holy Spirit with Mary.

How answerest thou this?

Jason

NO WAY!

Along with Pani Rose I'd like to answer no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no.

That is my responce. She is not part of the Triune God, she can do nothing on her own, everything she does is from the Father. Mother Theresa said once, "whatever you do, you it to Jesus, for Jesus, and with Jesus." This is the role of Blessed Mother. Did she not say all generations would call her Blessed? Seems to me that is one of the Scriptures that was glosed over when we were growing up Southen Baptist. Another one was in Gen 3:15 And I will put emnity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it will bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heal." So we as her children, since we are brothers and sisters in Christ, help but that emnity there.

Jason, she is like mama. It is easier to go tell mama than it is tell dad. That is what Blessed Mother does. Even in the different apparitions approved by the Church they have focused on the Triune God. Not on Mary. She never says do what I say, she says do what my Son says, she does however say thanks for listening to my prayers. A dear Passionist priest that we know well likes to describe the walk with Mary this way. As you are walking down the road, you see Blessed Mother standing there with her arm outstreched to you. As you approach her she takes your hand, but she is standing sideways to you. She then wholes your hand walking with you down the road, until together you approach Jesus, then she takes your hand from hers and places in the hand of our Lord. Together then you approach the Eternal Father. But the whole time you are walking down this road the Holy Spirit is guiding you to make sure that you don't take the wrong turn, till you are lead safely into the arms of our Creator.

I am the True Vine, and my Father is the hus- bandman. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit ... As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me. I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing. (John 15: 1-5)

Blessed Mother is one of those vines. And she does bare fruit, not just her Son, but us for her Son with the Holy Spirit.

Icon with the veil, someone mentioned. Moscow use to have an awesome one on their site but I can't find it.
http://www.archeparchy.org/

Pani Rose

You were taught falsehood; an unambiguous lie.

I would like to say that officially, there is no way that Catholics replace the Holy Spirit with Mary.

But I can tell from personal observation that it probably happens more often than we care to admit unofficially.

Most Catholics have no concept of role or place for the Holy Spirit, they know exactly where Mary fits in their spirituality, so there may be some justification to the claim.

The Paraclete is with us always, yet we search out the popular apparitions for messages and signs, secrets and predictions.

People don't generally claim to have received a visit or a message from the Holy Spirit, that hasn't been a popular concept since the Montanists were declared heretics. But mention a visit from Mary somewhere and all ears perk up, it's "safe" to listen to Mary.

That's just how I see it, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

I don't think that Mary has replaced the Holy Spirit, but I believe many Catholics don't give much thought or mention to the Holy Spirit - part of the Trinity, but often ignored. I have heard the Holy Spirit referred to as the forgotten member of the Trinity.

Dear Friends,

One Protestant, who was much more charitable toward Catholics, once wrote that Catholics did not replace the Holy Spirit with Mary - but that Mary was the greatest human Temple OF the Holy Spirit since it was in her that the greatest miracle of the Spirit was wrought - the Divine Incarnation of the Son of God!

To go back to Montfort for a minute, his spirituality emphasizes devotion to the Holy Spirit in the first instance and his Spiritual Exercises begin with the Litany of the Holy Spirit.

When one begins the 33-day preparation for the renewal of one's Baptismal commitment to Jesus through Mary, one prays daily the Litanies of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary (or Akathists on the same devotional themes).

There is also the prayer, "Veni Creator Spiritus" and one is to reflect on how Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, how He formed Christ in her womb, how she was docile to the Holy Spirit and how we may also have Christ formed in our souls by means of the Holy Spirit etc.

In fact, my early acquaintance with Montfort's spirituality is what led to an interest in all things Eastern.

St John of Kronstadt and St Louis de Montfort both shared a similar invocation to the Mother of Christ that went: Rejoice, O Daughter of God the Father, Rejoice O Mother of God the Son, Rejoice, O Spouse of the Holy Spirit, Rejoice O Temple of the Most Holy Trinity!

In the book, "A Protestant Pastor Looks at Mary," the author, a Lutheran minister, says that early Protestantism tended to jettison the Humanity of Christ.

He says that in Luther's view of salvation, there really wasn't much place for Christ's Humanity (how interesting!).

But, he also says, devotion to the Virgin Mary, historically and today, helps bring home the reality of the Divine Incarnation.

Christ is not an abstraction - abstractions don't have mothers.

For St Louis de Montfort, the feast-day of the devotion of Holy Slavery, as he called it, is the Feast of the Annunciation, or the feast of the Divine Incarnation of our Lord.

In Eastern Christianity, the preference is for Christians to call themselves "Slaves of Christ" (and I've also read in the Octoechos the term "We are your slaves, O Most Holy Mother of God" or, as Montfort would say, "Slaves of Jesus in Mary").

And the Annunciation feast is so great in the East, that if it should fall on an Easter Sunday or Pascha, then, liturgically, the "Kirion Pascha" tends to transform even the feast of Pascha itself. After all, the Annunciation is about God becoming Man, penetrating our humanity with His Divinity etc.

And Pope John Paul II, a life-long "Slave of Jesus in Mary" has renamed the feast of the Annunciation as the "Feast of the Incarnation" again following St Louis de Montfort's lead on this.

IF devotion to Mary takes us away from Christ, then there should not be ANY devotion to Mary - something the Pope himself concluded as a young seminarian.

But devotion to Mary, as the Protestant Pastor above says, brings us to more intimate union with Christ as the Incarnate Divine Word.

Although I've always believed in the Incarnation, it was only via St Louis' insights that this Fact of our Faith came alive for me in a very special way.

It is no wonder the Church defined the term "Theotokos" as a touchstone of Orthodoxy in the Catholic Church with respect to a proper understanding of Christ's Incarnation.

Every historical heresy can be somehow connected to an erroneous understanding of Christ's Incarnation, it is said.

That is why the Montfort way is an excellent way for all of us to not only appreciate Christ as our Incarnate God (TRULY Incarnate), but to also live our lives in Christ with Mary as our Exemplar of prayer, conformity to God's Will, and as the nurturing Mother of the Body of Christ that is the Church.

Alex

I still don't think that's true, even unofficially. To say 'replace' implies confusion between God and the Virgin Mary. Even the most ignorant Catholic will tell you Our Lady is not God.

I don't think I've seen a fellow Catholic confuse Our Lady with the the Holy Spirit or any member of the Holy Trinity.

Wether or not the Holy Spirit is a popular focus in personal devotions is a different issue.

I agree that Catholics know the difference between God and Mary and don't replace the Holy Spirit with Mary. But I have seen what I would call extreme Mary devotees ignore God and dote on Mary.

I think it's natural to "dote on Mary"---because Almighty God is in the words of St. Basil the Great, He is: "Who can utter Your mighty acts? Or who can make all Your praises known? Or tell of all Your miracles at all times? O Master of all, Lord of heaven and earth and of all creation both visible and invisible; Who sits upon the throne of glory and beholds the depths; without beginning, invisible, incomprehesible, indescribable, changeless. O Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the great God and Saviour, our hope, Who is the image of Your goodness, the seal of Your very likeness, showing forth in Himself YOU, O Father..." Because of this very 'Eastern' understanding of Him Who is...we sinners are often struck as dumb before His majesty and power...and although we can more easily approach His Son, Our Blessed Lord, we have been given a MOTHER by the Lord Himself while hanging upon the Cross! Many of us simply find it easy to approach our Mother in time of difficulty and need...or simply because we are comfortable with the feminine expression of God's goodness to mankind. I don't think it says anything LESS about our love for the Lord---that we LOVE His Holy Mother! As Alex said, if at the end of my days the 'worse' thing that I am charged with is loving the Lord's Mother 'too much'---then I'll be indeed safe...and happy!

In her honor,
+Fr. Gregory

Bless, Father Gregory,

Are you sure your surname isn't "the Dialogist?"

Your insight on the feminine is extremely important.

Mary "feminizes" our notion of God. Protestantism came in with very masculine conceptions about God that had no room, consequently, for the Virgin Mary.

However, Martin Luther and the early Reformers DID in fact continue to say the Hail Mary and Oecolampadius began his Eucharist service with a "Hail Mary."

Lutherans who delve back into their traditions come to realize that the Marian Rosary is certainly one of them.

I read once that the icon of the Virgin holding the Child Jesus is NOT an icon of the Mother of God so much as it is the icon of the Incarnation or even the icon of the First Coming of Christ.

The icons of the Theotokos on the left of the iconostasis is therefore the icon of the First Coming of Christ and the icon of Christ on the Right of the Royal Doors is that of the Second Coming of Christ - the space covered by the Royal Doors and the Curtain also can symbolize our lives lived in between these two Events.

Also, the great "Icon of the Holy Spirit" is not necessarily the Dove (Russian Old Believer iconography FORBIDS this representation of the Holy Spirit).

The great Icon of the Holy Spirit in the East is, in fact, the Icon of All Saints, the great Temples wherein He dwells. How much more does He dwell in His particular Temple wherein He wrought the miracle of the Incarnation (You-know-Who )

To separate Mary from the Incarnation would be to rob her of the Source of her privileges and holiness. She is always either holding out Her Son on her arms either as a Child, or after being taken down from the Cross, or upraised in prayer to Him for the Church and for us, or lowered downward to pour His Grace on us through her intercession.

This is all Incarnational religion at its best. It can be no other way for those who truly take the Incarnation seriously.

Alex

Dear Friends,

Here is the link to the theological commentary on the spirituality of St Louis de Montfort:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/handbook.htm

All the articles covering various topics are there and you can click on any one of them for your reading pleasure!

Here is a great website of the Montfort missionaries:

www.montfortmissionaries.com [montfortmissionaries.com]

The letters section is really excellent, (Share your Thoughts) some very good letters there!

Alex