www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Something about Mary

Dear All,

Please forgive me if I am being redundant on what has been posted in other rooms on other threads.

I have been Roman Catholic since '01. But I have questions on a number of issues. In particular, what i want to ask about here pertains to our Lady.

I do have affection and a love for my mother Mary but am totally turned off by many of the marian devotions that I see. Some of them just leave me scratching my head at the things they ask for. We were praying the rosary one night not too long ago at a bible study and the intentions that were listed in our rosary schema were like "For reparation for sins comitted against your immaculate conception." Maybe that is perfectly orthodox but it gives me the creeps.

On the whole I think i feel much more affinity to the Eastern approach to marian spirituality but i really know next to nothing about it. Are there any good books on the topic?

You stout westerners, do you have any insites or explainations to the extreme language used in many marian devotions? Why is the rosary used almost fanatically by some people as though it had some kind of special power? Why do some people speak always of Mary and little of her Son?

Thanks for taking the time to read my questions.

Jason Brim

My thoughts don't directly relate to the question you have on the theology of Mary, but....

I ocassionlay think that Mary is tangible. She was human, one of us, we could reach out and touch her. This makes an emotional connection with us mere mortals. Because she still appears to us today, in many ways, we can still reach out and touch her. In a sence we can tangibly touch heaven.

Once, many years ago, a woman called us to go out to a field here where there were "apparitions" and that was because one of the visionaires from Medjugore was here and received her visits there. She meant well, she truly loved the Lord(may her memory be eternal+), and was just excited about what was occuring there. Well this woman words were none to kind toward us when my husband, Deacon Stan, told her no, we weren't going. He felt that God was not calling us to go there, our plate was full where we were. She was furious, using a few #$*// words, saying that we were leaders and that is where we should be. Funny thing - we aren't Roman Catholic, their bishop had not sactioned it, and actually had told everyone stay away. But that did not matter, she was emotionally attached.

This is what I really feel happens with a lot of people it. It may be so with those you pray with to a certain extent. And I am not knocking anyone anywhere for their faith or praying the rosary!
God honors it and hears all of our prayers.

I should be so faithful in prayer.

Our Lady asks us to stand with her. She cuts her apron strings at some point and says now do as I do. Blessed Mother ask us to stand beside her, to not be afraid to share the Gospel message, and witness to the power and love of God. For some it is safer to pray than to act, and there are many who physically, emotionally, or mentally can only pray and that is ok. The rosary is a very powerful tool against satan, miracles constantly happen because of it's use. For so many people it is much easier to run to mama than to Dad, and that is what happens.

Just my thoughts, those of another mom with attached kids.

http://pontifications.classicalanglican.net/index.php?p=346

By our own Dr. Alex

Thanks Rose.

You raise some good points. With some groups I have encountered, I feel safe in saying they were Marian cults. And you are right, Christ gets forgotten in the near-worship of Mary. I think Mary would be the first to be appalled at this. She seems to me to be more interested in directing attention to her son, not to herself. And that rosary is almost considered a magical device, which it wasn't, isn't, and never will be. I realize the country of Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore, but at one point the Yugoslavian Bishops Conference did declare Medjugorge unworthy of belief. Of course, the rabid devotees will never accept any declaration that goes against one of their pet devotions. There is one lady locally who would get in her car and drive cross-country if she heard Mary was appearing somewhere on a garage door. I don't understand it, especially since Christ himself said that if we hear he is in the desert, we are not to go there. I think a good deal of it rests on the old but wise advice that groups and individuals need good spiritual direction to keep them from going to devotional excess and in wrong directions.

I agree with this.

Also, there was a major Marian heresy in southern Poland, I think in the 1930's.

The Pope had to excommunicate a lot of people, including clerics. Some priests went into schism and there is still a small remnant church that derives out of it.

Apparently most of those people went to confession and were received back into the church. Surprisingly, there is very little on the internet about it and I don't have time to search it out right now.

The point is, it can happen, and perhaps does happen among individuals that they cross that line and when you try to correct them you'll look like a liberal Catholic and be dismissed out of hand. Marian extremism is teflon coated these days, nothing will stick to them because there is a habitual reaction among all people who love Mary to rise up in "her" defense against even the slightest criticism.

Michael

I'm in total agreement here - I have been on the receiving end of some of their complete over the top type of intensity - and more or less been accused of non-belief into the bargain.

My own rule of thumb here, is that if something that is suggested makes me feel uncomfortable - then it's not for me.

And yes I do have a very strong devotion to Our Blessed Mother - She was a very great person and without Her I can't imagine what would have happened - but She is not God , has never been and can never be. She is the Mother of our Redeemer - and therefore worthy of our praise and we should attempt to be more like her - but we cannot make Her to be something She is not.

I hope these rambles make a bit of sense

Anhelyna

I am a former stout (literally) Westerner who studied for the RC priesthood even, and I could never get into Marion devotions. I just never felt right about it. Roman Catholic seminarians and priests are strongly encouraged to develop a good relationship with Mary, and I think it has something to do with loving a woman you can't touch, but I'm not going there. I was bothered by it, anyway, and got really scared when some guys tried to recruit me for the Legion of Mary... the name alone scared me off.

Now honestly, I know many priests who belong to the Legion of Mary and the group is good, but it just wasn't for me. I don't know, I too feel that Marion devotion goes too far... I even get uncomfortable when couples at a RC wedding pray before the statue of Mary.

I agree in that sometimes the devotion to Mary has gone to extremes.

What has always blessed and spoken to me is found in the story of the Wedding at Cana. When they have run out of wine she alerts her son by telling him that they have run out. He replies by saying, "My time has not yet come." She then tells the servants to "Do whatever he tells you." He does change the water into wine.[Cf: John:2:1-11.]

I ask for her intercessory prayer believing he continues to do what she asks him.

domilsean,

I had trouble with Marian spirituality when I returned to RC from evangelical Protestantism.
It was a slow process for me to appreciate and love Mary as my Mother (St. John 19:26-27).

Don't worry that the many Marian groups and devotions bother you. It's OK to be uncomfortable with them.

If you can say a Hail Mary, you have a healthy relationship with Mary, the mother of God.

Mary, star of the sea, lead us to our port who is Christ. (a favorite Marian prayer of mine).

Paul

Yes, I agree. Our devotion to Our Lady should be mature. Just as we mature, and our love for our own mothers matures. I think (not sure, not being there) that at the Bible study when some one mentioned the petition "against sins committed against her Immaculate Conception" I believe they were refering to abortion and birth control.

I can see why some Protestants think Catholics "worship" Mary. We venerate her because she is the Mother of God. But some people take the sentimentality too far. A few years ago I remember meeting people who were into the so-called visions of Bayside, NY. The ordinary of the diocese condemned them. (You occassionaly see postings on Catholic web-sites about it.)

What I find interesting is someone claims (usually a woman), that she is having visions of our Blessed Mother in her backyard, and you find out she has recently been to Medijore. Well, save your airfare. You can see those same visions in your own local neighborhood. I can't understand the idea behind changing the chains of rosaries into gold, for instance, but then, thats me.

I have been trying to develop a healthy relationship with Mary but haven't really found the resources to do so.

Can anyone recommend some sources?

Thanks

When I was became a Roman Catholic 20+ years ago(after an atheist upbringing), I just shrugged Mary off as peripheral. I could never figure out people who were utterly devoted to her or spoke so tenderly and affectionately about her.

It wasn't until God called me further East that I began to understand... Part of the problem is that whenever Marian hymns or prayers are included in the liturgies of the Western church, they stick out like a sore thumb -- what is THAT doing here? But in the Eastern liturgies, prayers to the Theotokos are as normal (and dare I say as essential?) as breathing. Now after 10 years of breathing those mysteries in the Melkite Church, I can honor her and offer prayers and praise -- without feeling like I've crossed over some irrational line.

Are there good resources for you to turn to? Find the closest Byzantine church and go! I don't think this is something you can attain through books and study.

I hear you. I was raised in a fundamentalist, dispensationalist, independant Baptist church. I don't think you can get much farther than that away from Catholic spirituality and Marian devotion. Mary played absolutly no part in my religious upbringing so she feels totally foriegn to me. Now, on the other hand I am grateful for other parts of my early religious instruction. I was taught about the trinity, the incarnation, that Jesus died for me etc.... which was a good prepration for the fuller truth of the Catholic church but sadly it lacked in other significant ways, notably concerning Mary and the communion of saints. To the Baptist communion of the saints is limited to the pot luck dinner in fellowship hall after church.

Jason

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

In order to put myself into a good frame of mind in relation to Mary I had to get rid of those statues with only her on them (you know the kind, they look good in bathtubs!)

My icons of the Theotokos all have her with Jesus in her arms. I have a nice Bavarian Madonna in my study too, it is very lovely with a naturalistic posture holding the child Jesus.

I intersperse Hail Mary's between my Jesus prayers: after every 25 I will say a doxology, or the creed or a Hail Mary. I am comfortable with this, I need to focus on God but I do not leave Mary out, I ask that she pray for me and with me as I pray.

That's as far as I go on my own, we praise her to the skies at church (I love the Marian hymns) and those praises make sense to me. I am comfortable with this level of devotion and cannot see any change in the future, but if my attachment grows further it will not be artificially induced.

Michael
+T+

Is there any other kind? Don't all Byzantine icons of the Theotokos have Jesus? That was one of the things that helped me understand. It's not Mary as MARY, it's Mary as the MOTHER OF GOD, it's her relationship to Jesus that defines her relationship to us.

Yes.

St. Louis de Monfort's True Devotion is an excellent example of TRUE Latin spirituality in Marian devotion, and has been firmly endorsed by our own Dr. Alex Roman.

I would recommend this book to everyone who is uncomfortable with Marian devotions. It would also be useful to those who want to compare "East" and "West" re: Mary. IMHO there are a lot more similarities than differences, polemics to the contrary notwithstanding.

Just a clarification, the Medjugorje movement does NOT represent traditional western Marian devotion. The alleged apparitions at this site have been condemned repeatedly at the diocesan level, and Catholic priests and parishes are FORBIDDEN by Rome from sending pilgrimage groups to Medjugorje (despite the fact that so many of them seem to be unaware or just don't care about this prohibition).

LatinTrad

In my former Latin Catholic days I always questioned my inability to "get into" the Marian devotions, and as has been mentioned many times already, I now feel much more comfortable with devotion to her in the East.

I still remember what suddenly dawned on me one day, during that transitional period when I was contemplating an official canonical transfer from the Latin church. It was not so much that all icons of the Theotokos also have Christ depicted. It was the position of Mary's hands. In most western statuary that I had seen, her hands were always at about waist level, palms facing outward, and forearms at a slight angle to the body, as if she were giving us herself as a gift, whereas most icons where she is holding Jesus, her hand is pointing toward him, showing us the true gift she gave us. From that moment on, everything else just fell into place.

Another endorsement for that book - I came to it after a long discussion with my Spiritual Director at that time - when I had been wrestling with understanding Mary's position - we talked for about 3 hours the day I finally admitted that I had problems with this - I couldn't understand how to pray the Rosary either - but at the same time I did understand how Mary had given me many favours - just one of which was my husband taking me to Lourdes after he had spent 7 weeks there with sick and dying pilgrims - and remember he is NOT a believer. Fr John's prescription that day was to read the book - I did and it was a real eyeopener.

Despite all that , I have to say - I prefer the way that the East looks to our beloved Mother - they honour her in a far more open way and it is less 'cloying' too - far more natural.

All this talk at times about the Imaculate Conception and the desire to spell out exactly what it means or does not mean really confuses me.

I have absolutely no doubt that as the Mother of Christ - She had to be free from sin or She would not have been chosen by the Father to be the Mother of the Son. To me that fact is all that is necessary.

Anhelyna - with another ramble

Thanks for the suggestion. I just ordered from Amazon. I have seen this book before and wondered about it but didn't have the guts to buy it and read it.

Jason

Mostly, but that's my point. In the west
she is very often illustrated or depicted alone. I prefer not to use that imagery for myself.

But in answer to your your specific question no, the next most popular icon of Mary that I am aware of is of her holding the veil of protection over something, as a sort of dedication. This derives from her being seen in a vision doing just that over Constantinople.

As for Montfortian spirituality, I have found it too much to take. Evidently people find a lot of value in it, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone inquiring about the Faith, and I don't follow it myself. I think his language goes way overboard.

Michael

Dear Michael,

That's fair ball!

But Pope John Paul II himself has firmly endorsed Montfortian spirituality and this is reflected in a number of his own apostolic letters and teachings.

I too once thought Montfort was "over the top." But I've since had an opportunity to read over his writings (there is an excellent compendium of them all, in addition to another volume that is a solid Catholic theological examination of his works that is online as well).

If we compare what Montfort wrote to the writings of Orthodox saints and to our own liturgical prayers, the Octoechos and others, we will see that it is Montfort who is following the Eastern spirituality and what appears to us sometimes as "over the top" is actually his borrowing of phrases from the Eastern Fathers, as our Father Gregory has so often shown here (God bless him!).

Montfort is essentially saying what Orthodox Catholics in East and West have always believed, that veneration for the Most Holy Mother of God is one of the best ways, if not THE best way, to deepen our union with the Incarnate Wisdom (Montfort's language), Jesus Christ.

As Pope John Paul II has said, this spirituality brings one into the Mystery of Christ and that of the Holy Trinity in a powerful way.

My favourite teaching of Montfort is that when the Holy Spirit finds a soul that is imbued with the Most Holy Virgin Mary, then He begins to do in that soul what He did in the Virgin Mary 2,000 years ago - He begins to form Jesus Christ in it.

It is solid incarnational theology and one can readily find similar devotional themes in someone like St Seraphim of Sarov et al.

But no one is, of course, forced to practice this spirituality!

For me, it brings home the reality of the Divine Incarnation in a way that is unlike any other.

It is of no consequence whether I approve it or not (thanks anyway, LatinTrad! ), the CHurch does and so does our Pope.

And Montfort should be given an open hearing by anyone considering him, by reading what he wrote, his life etc.

I think there are many phrases in Eastern hymnography that go well beyond Montfort in doing honour to the Virgin Mary!

But this all brings us closer to the Lord Jesus Who took His flesh from Her.

Try it, and see, is all I can say.

I did, and I'll never go back!

Alex

The Forge by St. Josemaria, on Struggle, Number 157

Mother, do not leave me! Let me seek your Son, let me find your Son, let me love your Son - with my whole being. Remember me, my Lady, remember me.


Her servant,
+Fr. Gregory

For those who do NOT find Montfortian spirituality as being over the top here is a quote from "The Marian Life"(the black notebooks) by Father Jacquier. He was a Religious who lived the Secret of Mary in depth by abiding always in the heart of the Virgin Mary like a little embryo. His writings are so simple and express his childlike dependence on her that structured his whole interior life. His was not a devotion to the Virgin Mary but a life lived at every moment with, through and in Her. It is the way of the "little one", as Father Jacquier refers to himself.

"We must thus form the habit of living continually in Mary, with abandonment. For that, be well convinced, that in the supernatural order, there is no distance. A true communion exists between us and our Mother: I believe in the communion of saints.

She is in us, spiritually present, and we are in her, and it is in her that we possess God. Let us live through faith in the Heart of our Mother: 'Christum habitare per fidem in cordibus vestris'. She is in me, I am in her, by an intimacy superior to that which exists between a mother and the little ones she bears in her womb; that being a material union; this being a spiritual communion. Oh! If only we think of it! 'I am in the heart of Mary', my so tender and so powerful Mother."

"It is there that divine love put me on the day of my baptism, and I don't think of it. It is there that God wants to communicate to me the superabundance of His life. Ah! Let us allow ourselves to be absorbed by the maternal love of Mary. It is a maternal love that she has for us. She thus loves each one with her whole heart. It is for me that she said her fiat, that she gave her Jesus and gave herself with Him, and it is over me that she is unceasingly leaning, or better, it is me whom she embraces in her Heart, like the little Jesus. Oh! let us have faith in the maternal love of Mary, total love for each of her children!
She loved me and gave herself for me. I must love her and give myself to her without reservation."

Now this is definitely over the top!! But as Alex said "once you try it you'll never go back." You simply can't!

In Her,
Chaire

I found St Louis de Montfort's, "True Devotion to Mary" to be good in substance, but his language is full of hyperbole and overreaction to the Protestant reformation.

Nevertheless, I did make a total consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary at our Archdiocesan Rosary Rally shortly after reading "True Devotion to Mary."

Paul

Dear Paul,

Actually, if one were to remove all the theological phrases in Catholicism that were a reaction to Protestantism, the entire Council of Trent would have to go out the window!

And I think that if we read Montfort in context, there is NO over the top at all in him.

To live our Christian life of commitment to the Lord Jesus in her and through her is to adopt HER great resignation to God's Will and love for Jesus.

It is to allow ourselves to be formed by her who, among all human beings, knew and knows the Lord Jesus best.

There were some Russian saints who actually prayed the "Hail Mary" all the time, even instead of the Jesus Prayer.

This prayer begins with Mary and ends with Jesus or, takes us on the ladder that is Mary to Christ in Heaven.

She always directs us to her Son. And when we go to her, she always says, as she did to the people at the Wedding at Cana, "Do whatever He tells you to" as a condition for her intercession, "They have no wine."

Whenever we go to Holy Communion, we taste of the New Wine of the New Testament that is the Precious Blood of Christ poured out for us.

The Mother of God is the medium that made the "inhominization" of God the Word possible and also the Mystery of Holy Communion possible.

And when we receive Holy Communion, we become like the Theotokos at her Annunciation.

Montfort teaches us to recite the "Magnificat" when we receive Jesus in Holy Communion.

There is no more wonderful experience of prayerful thanksgiving after receiving the Eucharist than reciting this prayer.

Try it, you'll like it!

I did it last night for the eve of Epiphany.

Simply Divine!!

Alex

I think Montfort goes "over the top," as well. When I read the book, I thought he went to excess. I don't know how much of that is because his devotion did cross the line to excess, or because it reflects the writing style of another age. For example, when I read St. Therese's book, I found it so sacharine I could barely stand it. But if you take her ideas out of that sickeningly-sweet writing style, it changes things and you begin to see her character and strength emerge. For myself, I find the Divine Liturgy contains all I need to know and believe in terms of Marian spirituality.

Dear Charles,

Actually, when one reads things in context, including historical context, they do become less sickening!

Alex

byzanTN,

I think the writing style of Montfort may be the difficulty for us 21st century humans (maybe the translation too).

Alex,

Reactions to Protestantism are fine. It's the overreaction that makes bad theology.

We are all children of Mary. I like your suggestion about praying the Magnificat.

Paul

Dear Paul,

Some think Vatican II was agreeing with Protestantism too much .

Really, the idea that Montfort is overreacting in any way is nonsense.

We may be uncomfortable with his writing style.

But I have yet to read an Eastern Father whose writing style I liked!

There is a book out that is a contemporary theological commentary on Montfort "Jesus Living In Mary."

It is online at the library of www.ewtn.com [ewtn.com]

This puts things in perspective from an historical point of view and is well worth the read.

Let's remember that the Pope, when he was a young man, COMPLETELY questioned why there should be devotion to Mary AT ALL.

But then, as he said, he read Montfort's work and discovered fresh perspectives.

He's followed Montfort's spirituality all his life, visited his tomb as Pope and raised his feast to universal status (also beatified Bl Marie-Louise Trichet, Montfort's friend and follower).

Alex

The icon of the Holy Protection of the Teotokos is without Jesus.

ok im going to step out on a limb here.

when i was protestant i was taught that Catholics replaced the role of the Holy Spirit with Mary.

How answerest thou this?

Jason

NO WAY!

Along with Pani Rose I'd like to answer no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no.

That is my responce. She is not part of the Triune God, she can do nothing on her own, everything she does is from the Father. Mother Theresa said once, "whatever you do, you it to Jesus, for Jesus, and with Jesus." This is the role of Blessed Mother. Did she not say all generations would call her Blessed? Seems to me that is one of the Scriptures that was glosed over when we were growing up Southen Baptist. Another one was in Gen 3:15 And I will put emnity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it will bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heal." So we as her children, since we are brothers and sisters in Christ, help but that emnity there.

Jason, she is like mama. It is easier to go tell mama than it is tell dad. That is what Blessed Mother does. Even in the different apparitions approved by the Church they have focused on the Triune God. Not on Mary. She never says do what I say, she says do what my Son says, she does however say thanks for listening to my prayers. A dear Passionist priest that we know well likes to describe the walk with Mary this way. As you are walking down the road, you see Blessed Mother standing there with her arm outstreched to you. As you approach her she takes your hand, but she is standing sideways to you. She then wholes your hand walking with you down the road, until together you approach Jesus, then she takes your hand from hers and places in the hand of our Lord. Together then you approach the Eternal Father. But the whole time you are walking down this road the Holy Spirit is guiding you to make sure that you don't take the wrong turn, till you are lead safely into the arms of our Creator.

I am the True Vine, and my Father is the hus- bandman. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit ... As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me. I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing. (John 15: 1-5)

Blessed Mother is one of those vines. And she does bare fruit, not just her Son, but us for her Son with the Holy Spirit.

Icon with the veil, someone mentioned. Moscow use to have an awesome one on their site but I can't find it.
http://www.archeparchy.org/

Pani Rose

You were taught falsehood; an unambiguous lie.

I would like to say that officially, there is no way that Catholics replace the Holy Spirit with Mary.

But I can tell from personal observation that it probably happens more often than we care to admit unofficially.

Most Catholics have no concept of role or place for the Holy Spirit, they know exactly where Mary fits in their spirituality, so there may be some justification to the claim.

The Paraclete is with us always, yet we search out the popular apparitions for messages and signs, secrets and predictions.

People don't generally claim to have received a visit or a message from the Holy Spirit, that hasn't been a popular concept since the Montanists were declared heretics. But mention a visit from Mary somewhere and all ears perk up, it's "safe" to listen to Mary.

That's just how I see it, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

I don't think that Mary has replaced the Holy Spirit, but I believe many Catholics don't give much thought or mention to the Holy Spirit - part of the Trinity, but often ignored. I have heard the Holy Spirit referred to as the forgotten member of the Trinity.

Dear Friends,

One Protestant, who was much more charitable toward Catholics, once wrote that Catholics did not replace the Holy Spirit with Mary - but that Mary was the greatest human Temple OF the Holy Spirit since it was in her that the greatest miracle of the Spirit was wrought - the Divine Incarnation of the Son of God!

To go back to Montfort for a minute, his spirituality emphasizes devotion to the Holy Spirit in the first instance and his Spiritual Exercises begin with the Litany of the Holy Spirit.

When one begins the 33-day preparation for the renewal of one's Baptismal commitment to Jesus through Mary, one prays daily the Litanies of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary (or Akathists on the same devotional themes).

There is also the prayer, "Veni Creator Spiritus" and one is to reflect on how Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, how He formed Christ in her womb, how she was docile to the Holy Spirit and how we may also have Christ formed in our souls by means of the Holy Spirit etc.

In fact, my early acquaintance with Montfort's spirituality is what led to an interest in all things Eastern.

St John of Kronstadt and St Louis de Montfort both shared a similar invocation to the Mother of Christ that went: Rejoice, O Daughter of God the Father, Rejoice O Mother of God the Son, Rejoice, O Spouse of the Holy Spirit, Rejoice O Temple of the Most Holy Trinity!

In the book, "A Protestant Pastor Looks at Mary," the author, a Lutheran minister, says that early Protestantism tended to jettison the Humanity of Christ.

He says that in Luther's view of salvation, there really wasn't much place for Christ's Humanity (how interesting!).

But, he also says, devotion to the Virgin Mary, historically and today, helps bring home the reality of the Divine Incarnation.

Christ is not an abstraction - abstractions don't have mothers.

For St Louis de Montfort, the feast-day of the devotion of Holy Slavery, as he called it, is the Feast of the Annunciation, or the feast of the Divine Incarnation of our Lord.

In Eastern Christianity, the preference is for Christians to call themselves "Slaves of Christ" (and I've also read in the Octoechos the term "We are your slaves, O Most Holy Mother of God" or, as Montfort would say, "Slaves of Jesus in Mary").

And the Annunciation feast is so great in the East, that if it should fall on an Easter Sunday or Pascha, then, liturgically, the "Kirion Pascha" tends to transform even the feast of Pascha itself. After all, the Annunciation is about God becoming Man, penetrating our humanity with His Divinity etc.

And Pope John Paul II, a life-long "Slave of Jesus in Mary" has renamed the feast of the Annunciation as the "Feast of the Incarnation" again following St Louis de Montfort's lead on this.

IF devotion to Mary takes us away from Christ, then there should not be ANY devotion to Mary - something the Pope himself concluded as a young seminarian.

But devotion to Mary, as the Protestant Pastor above says, brings us to more intimate union with Christ as the Incarnate Divine Word.

Although I've always believed in the Incarnation, it was only via St Louis' insights that this Fact of our Faith came alive for me in a very special way.

It is no wonder the Church defined the term "Theotokos" as a touchstone of Orthodoxy in the Catholic Church with respect to a proper understanding of Christ's Incarnation.

Every historical heresy can be somehow connected to an erroneous understanding of Christ's Incarnation, it is said.

That is why the Montfort way is an excellent way for all of us to not only appreciate Christ as our Incarnate God (TRULY Incarnate), but to also live our lives in Christ with Mary as our Exemplar of prayer, conformity to God's Will, and as the nurturing Mother of the Body of Christ that is the Church.

Alex

I still don't think that's true, even unofficially. To say 'replace' implies confusion between God and the Virgin Mary. Even the most ignorant Catholic will tell you Our Lady is not God.

I don't think I've seen a fellow Catholic confuse Our Lady with the the Holy Spirit or any member of the Holy Trinity.

Wether or not the Holy Spirit is a popular focus in personal devotions is a different issue.

I agree that Catholics know the difference between God and Mary and don't replace the Holy Spirit with Mary. But I have seen what I would call extreme Mary devotees ignore God and dote on Mary.

I think it's natural to "dote on Mary"---because Almighty God is in the words of St. Basil the Great, He is: "Who can utter Your mighty acts? Or who can make all Your praises known? Or tell of all Your miracles at all times? O Master of all, Lord of heaven and earth and of all creation both visible and invisible; Who sits upon the throne of glory and beholds the depths; without beginning, invisible, incomprehesible, indescribable, changeless. O Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the great God and Saviour, our hope, Who is the image of Your goodness, the seal of Your very likeness, showing forth in Himself YOU, O Father..." Because of this very 'Eastern' understanding of Him Who is...we sinners are often struck as dumb before His majesty and power...and although we can more easily approach His Son, Our Blessed Lord, we have been given a MOTHER by the Lord Himself while hanging upon the Cross! Many of us simply find it easy to approach our Mother in time of difficulty and need...or simply because we are comfortable with the feminine expression of God's goodness to mankind. I don't think it says anything LESS about our love for the Lord---that we LOVE His Holy Mother! As Alex said, if at the end of my days the 'worse' thing that I am charged with is loving the Lord's Mother 'too much'---then I'll be indeed safe...and happy!

In her honor,
+Fr. Gregory

Bless, Father Gregory,

Are you sure your surname isn't "the Dialogist?"

Your insight on the feminine is extremely important.

Mary "feminizes" our notion of God. Protestantism came in with very masculine conceptions about God that had no room, consequently, for the Virgin Mary.

However, Martin Luther and the early Reformers DID in fact continue to say the Hail Mary and Oecolampadius began his Eucharist service with a "Hail Mary."

Lutherans who delve back into their traditions come to realize that the Marian Rosary is certainly one of them.

I read once that the icon of the Virgin holding the Child Jesus is NOT an icon of the Mother of God so much as it is the icon of the Incarnation or even the icon of the First Coming of Christ.

The icons of the Theotokos on the left of the iconostasis is therefore the icon of the First Coming of Christ and the icon of Christ on the Right of the Royal Doors is that of the Second Coming of Christ - the space covered by the Royal Doors and the Curtain also can symbolize our lives lived in between these two Events.

Also, the great "Icon of the Holy Spirit" is not necessarily the Dove (Russian Old Believer iconography FORBIDS this representation of the Holy Spirit).

The great Icon of the Holy Spirit in the East is, in fact, the Icon of All Saints, the great Temples wherein He dwells. How much more does He dwell in His particular Temple wherein He wrought the miracle of the Incarnation (You-know-Who )

To separate Mary from the Incarnation would be to rob her of the Source of her privileges and holiness. She is always either holding out Her Son on her arms either as a Child, or after being taken down from the Cross, or upraised in prayer to Him for the Church and for us, or lowered downward to pour His Grace on us through her intercession.

This is all Incarnational religion at its best. It can be no other way for those who truly take the Incarnation seriously.

Alex

Dear Friends,

Here is the link to the theological commentary on the spirituality of St Louis de Montfort:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/handbook.htm

All the articles covering various topics are there and you can click on any one of them for your reading pleasure!

Here is a great website of the Montfort missionaries:

www.montfortmissionaries.com [montfortmissionaries.com]

The letters section is really excellent, (Share your Thoughts) some very good letters there!

Alex

[QUOTE] A few years ago I remember meeting
people who were into the so-called visions of Bayside, NY. The ordinary of the diocese condemned
them. (You occassionaly see postings on Catholic web-sites about it.) [QUOTE]

Dear Mike,

I recall coming across a newspaper on those 'visions'. It gave me a very oppressed feeling, so I threw it away.

It seems everyone has their own experiences with prayers. For a time I tried to pray directly to Jesus, the way the Evangelicals did. I was quickly made to realize that my Lord wanted me to pray to the person I had always prayed to...His mother Mary.

According to Saint Gregory Palamas in the book SAINT GREGORY THE HAGIORITE, she transmits grace to the saints:

"in order that as in charge of the office where holiness is given, she may convey gifts of holiness to all without exception, without leaving anyone without a share, even of the hidden things of the universe, that is to say of those inaccessible things".

This is because the Theotokos is not only holy, but that she:

"alone is the boundary between created and uncreated nature". And therefore no one can come to God without her and through the mediation which has come from her; and none of the gifts from God could have been given to angels and men except through her'.

Zenovia

The picture of the statue on this page that Alex posted http://www.montfortmissionaries.com/ reminds me of what I thought of as I read in Zenovia's post
According to Saint Gregory Palamas in the book SAINT GREGORY THE HAGIORITE, she transmits grace to the saints:

I could just imagine her as a young mother sitting there with Jesus on her lap on a hot summer day, shewing away insects or anything that would harm him. Yet in her gentleness she would not want to harm them, not even a hair on their bodies - or whatever they have. So she would gently guide those that would not be so kind to her Son as a small child, to where they needed to be. Whether human or insect (ok I know that is weird), but there is a point to it. No matter how messed up our lives are, and not many of us think pestulence is great stuff but we can be like insects rather obnoxious at times, she gently guides us with the grace of God to her Son. Then the ugliness of our nature is much sweeter and a satisfing arouma to our Lord.

After all the Agngel Gabriel did say "Hail Mary full of Grace!" The Lord is with you!

Dear Mike,

Sorry, but I didn't catch your point above until now.

You said that the icon of the Protection depicts the Theotokos without Jesus - in fact, Christ is shown above her in a medallion, is He not?

Alex

In some Pokrov icons, yes; in others, no.